Where to Study the Tuba?

[bort2.0]

There is a model of education called competency-based education. It basically says that there's not different levels of competency, but rather just the one cut score that determines if you're competent or not competent.

It sounds a little bit like the old insane asylums, where you are either sane, or not sane. But it is a sensible idea for a lot of subject areas. Especially when that one cut score is pretty high. It doesn't really matter if the best of the best, as long as you're still meeting that one rather high cut score. Which is really no different than professional certifications either. There's one cut score about being certified or not certified. They just make it a really high cut score, and there's a lot of questions right around that one particular cut score in terms of difficulty. So you have to answer a lot of things consistently to demonstrate that you are in fact competent.

The word competent has never sounded like a very positive or high praise description, but I guess it's what we've got.

Tuba wise, I think college is really just about demonstrating that you are a competent tuba player. Everything else is based off of auditions anyway, it's not like being super awesome in college is going to get you a job. It's going to get you to the audition, where you'll have to play better than somebody else on that given day.

[Misfituba64]

Study with the guy whose students get all the job. I don't remember his name.

Probably referring to Aaron Tindall down in Florida, who has placed so very many students in full-time military band jobs and high profile orchestras, including the LAPO.
I don't talk to him about anything other than sending a few jokes back and forth through Facebook Messenger, but I'm sort of under the impression that he is shunned (yes? no?) by some of the other college tuba studio teachers at other universities... I don't know. Does success breed contempt?

There are jobs, and it's true that someone will fill them,
But there are also lotteries, and someone's going to win them.
Admittedly, with these jobs, a person has to be among the most competent, but it's not always THE most competent who is hired, just as it is in all other fields.

Aaron is an excellent teacher and a valuable resource. That said, there are many outstanding teachers available. I do not fully understand why it was necessary to raise or imply the idea of someone being “shunned,” as that comes across as somewhat disrespectful.

It is also worth noting that, when it comes to winning jobs, teachers are not the ones earning the positions; their students are. Many of the individuals who go on to win jobs likely would have found success through a variety of strong programs and teachers. Because of that, studying with a particular person is not always as decisive as it is sometimes made out to be, even though reputation, prestige, and ego often seem to carry a great deal of weight in these conversations.

I’m always amazed at how interesting of a character you are bloke.

[bloke]

I'm not interesting. I'm just old, and old people really don't have any sort of need to have a filter - in regards to what they say, anymore...particularly when they're self-employed, and only answer to their customers.

Aaron is certainly not shunned by students - obviously not shunned by top students who are interested in success, and that's all that matters, isn't it?

my cats:
Admittedly, I do exercise particular care in what and in the way in which I speak to them.

[russiantuba]

This may not be the most reliable place to seek advice on this subject. Since you are in Texas, I would strongly recommend reaching out directly to the many colleges and universities across the state for accurate guidance. Texas All-State recognition is not particularly significant outside of Texas, and even within the state, it is only one factor among many. For that reason, I would not place too much emphasis on it.

A good starting point would be to contact some of the top music schools in Texas. In no particular order: Rice University, The University of Texas at Austin, Baylor University, Texas Tech University, Texas Christian University, the University of North Texas, and Stephen F. Austin State University. The professors at these institutions will be well qualified to answer your questions and provide valuable guidance.

There are certainly many other strong programs as well, but this would be an excellent place to begin.

Wanted to point out that SFASU position is open, as JD Salas is now the chair. UNT is currently under transition to Jeff Baker, who was at A&M Commerce.

A few of people you didn’t mention, that I would consider to be great musicians and teachers with great success :

Ed Jones, principal tubist at Fort Worth Symphony, professor at University Texas at Arlington

Scott Roeder, Professor of Tuba/Euph at UTRGV.

Jarrod Robertson, SMU. SMU is a conservatory style school and he has played with many of the major symphonies as a first call sub.

Jerome Stover, SHSU

I want to add to my original post, picking a program where you can get quality ensemble playing time with other quality musicians should be a priority when choosing a performance program. Going to the largest schools possible isn’t going to develop these ensemble skills that can be heard and noticed in auditions.

[Misfituba64]

This may not be the most reliable place to seek advice on this subject. Since you are in Texas, I would strongly recommend reaching out directly to the many colleges and universities across the state for accurate guidance. Texas All-State recognition is not particularly significant outside of Texas, and even within the state, it is only one factor among many. For that reason, I would not place too much emphasis on it.

A good starting point would be to contact some of the top music schools in Texas. In no particular order: Rice University, The University of Texas at Austin, Baylor University, Texas Tech University, Texas Christian University, the University of North Texas, and Stephen F. Austin State University. The professors at these institutions will be well qualified to answer your questions and provide valuable guidance.

There are certainly many other strong programs as well, but this would be an excellent place to begin.

Wanted to point out that SFASU position is open, as JD Salas is now the chair. UNT is currently under transition to Jeff Baker, who was at A&M Commerce.

A few of people you didn’t mention, that I would consider to be great musicians and teachers with great success :

Ed Jones, principal tubist at Fort Worth Symphony, professor at University Texas at Arlington

Scott Roeder, Professor of Tuba/Euph at UTRGV.

Jarrod Robertson, SMU. SMU is a conservatory style school and he has played with many of the major symphonies as a first call sub.

Jerome Stover, SHSU

I want to add to my original post, picking a program where you can get quality ensemble playing time with other quality musicians should be a priority when choosing a performance program. Going to the largest schools possible isn’t going to develop these ensemble skills that can be heard and noticed in auditions.

Reading comprehension isn’t a strong skill set of yours it seems. Very sorry about that. Check out the end of my post for clarity.

The same could be said about going to a smaller program aswell.

[russiantuba]

Reading comprehension isn’t a strong skill set of yours it seems. Very sorry about that. Check out the end of my post for clarity.

What a way to try to rip me. Reading comprehension is a strong suit—I’ve read and understand several scholarly articles in music over 10 years of education and past. I was more adding on to programs that would likely be a better place to start than some of the ones you named because of a transition. Yes, there are smaller schools as well, but I figured I would add on solid programs with active musicians in different areas of expertise, different areas of the state, who are in very stable positions of growth. Just because the programs are big or well known doesn’t mean they are a place to start.

Note, I am originally from Texas and attended a small school, know many of these professors and am very familiar with all of the programs. I would personally suggest UTA with Ed Jones over any of the programs you mentioned…with faculty stability and prestige. Emailing professors that aren’t involved with the studio or who are retiring from the institution would be the last places that I would personally ask…

[prodigal]

You study the tuba in a practice room. You will work with the most important teacher in your life, yourself.

Do you have the discipline to work on your material as long as it takes? If not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is. This will be probably hours a day, and that doesn't include ensemble time, that is just icing on the cake. By my senior yea)

There are MANY great teachers out there. I had one of them. I worked hard. I now wish that I had worked even harder now, but perspective grows with age.

[UncleBeer]

Do you have the discipline to work on your material as long as it takes? If not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is.

A good teacher provides excellent examples, pertinent corrections & suggestions, and valuable career advice. These are all essential. Autodidacts don't get very far.

[prodigal]

I fully agree, but it's always up to you. These kids, many for the first time, will be fully exposed to every vice imaginable during the first week. The classwork is rather easy, it's the time between classes that is the challenge. Lots of "free" time if you are not disciplined. Every drug and depravity available easily.

I don't think being a professional musician in the market, or lack thereof, is good career advice. As a public high teacher, I hope to keep my position year to year, but if you teach anything other than science, English, math, or social(ism) studies, or SPECIAL EDUCATION (you're locked in there) your tenure only goes as far as the receding budget.

Hard work for many students is a paradigm shift. They have had instant access to information their entire lives, and now they can have AI do most of their schoolwork for them. For example sports are terrible because the kids haven't done the conditioning to play, and injuries abound.

Remember, in the professional line of work, you are one bad note away from working at Starbucks.

I'm not trying to be a dream crusher, I had to grow up early pretty much by myself.

Look at inflation. Money and time making money matter in a world where the costs of everything are tripling every quarter century or so. Life is tough.

[graybach]

I think this is an aspect of this that hasn’t really been addressed:
You said you were combining music and business. Depending on what you want to do, it might not be a bad idea to seek out David Fedderly and Patrick Sheridan. Pat Sheridan has a masters degree in business from the University of Michigan and, of course, does the music thing at a world-class level and very well markets himself and things like that.

I remember reading a post from someone during the pandemic, though I couldn’t find the post anymore to quote it here, that the reason he had food on the table during the pandemic when everything was shut down was because he was a student of David Fedderly at Juilliard, and Mr. Fedderly taught him to diversify and not put all his eggs in one basket, business-wise. So, he had several business interests, (not sure if they were all music related or not), and apparently those kept food on the table. Even if you did end up going back to your family business, both of these gentlemen might be able to help you find a way to continue staying in music, as well, if the audition thing were not to work out.

Not sure who said it, but it is up there in previous comments on this thread:
If you are going to use music education as a fallback, make sure that you REALLY like to teach. I did the “education as a fallback“ thing, because I could do the job on tuba, but with the glut of people in the field, winning a job was nearly impossible, especially since I wasn’t in the elite tier of players. And even those guys have trouble winning the auditions.
And I HATED teaching. It’s an entirely different skill set than playing tuba, and you deal with administration making rules that you have no control over that make zero sense in your classroom, as well as parents micro-managing, and those two things are just the tip of the iceberg.
Some people were built to teach. And I respect them. I was not. I majored in music in college because I liked playing the tuba. Just make sure you like to teach if you’re gonna fall back on it.

I’m speaking of teaching in a school classroom. Private lessons are also different from playing tuba or teaching in the classroom, but I kind of liked those, because unless their parents were pushing them and they had zero interest in it, most people that are gonna pay you to teach them how to do something will at least practice.

[bloke]

just about completely off-topic, yet posted by bloke:

The not-too-long-ago retired principal oboist in the New York Philharmonic, Joe Robinson, held NO music degrees.
(Davidson College - a degree in English and economics...I believe this college later awarded him with an honorary doctorate in music.)

[russiantuba]

just about completely off-topic, yet posted by bloke:

The not-too-long-ago retired principal oboist in the New York Philharmonic, Joe Robinson, held NO music degrees.
(Davidson College - a degree in English and economics...I believe this college later awarded him with an honorary doctorate in music.)

Pretty sure Robyn Black, current tubist with the Milwaukee Symphony doesn’t have a music degree. They won the job at 18 years old while at Rice and took the job immediately.

[bloke]

just about completely off-topic, yet posted by bloke:

The not-too-long-ago retired principal oboist in the New York Philharmonic, Joe Robinson, held NO music degrees.
(Davidson College - a degree in English and economics...I believe this college later awarded him with an honorary doctorate in music.)

Pretty sure Robyn Black, current tubist with the Milwaukee Symphony doesn’t have a music degree. They won the job at 18 years old while at Rice and took the job immediately.

That's cool, but technically their major was music at Rice, correct?

[mikeytuba]

just about completely off-topic, yet posted by bloke:

The not-too-long-ago retired principal oboist in the New York Philharmonic, Joe Robinson, held NO music degrees.
(Davidson College - a degree in English and economics...I believe this college later awarded him with an honorary doctorate in music.)

To be fair, Joe Robinson could probably out-play most folks while still in high school. The amount/quality of music talent and education that came out of Lenoir High School Band program during that era is unreal as was the forward thinking of its director Captain James Harper. Most college music programs adopted and/or followed their lead and took advice from him. It is still the stuff of legend in our area. Ross Tolbert was also a LHS alum.

[prodigal]

I like teaching, some say I'm okay at it, but I'm still learning daily.

The crap is a lot, you learn how to shovel it.

[bloke]

It just seems to me that there is so little full-time "performance" work that people like
- my friend in high school, who played the school's fiberglass sousaphone at the professional level (yet with no formal instruction)
- people like my son-in-law, his daughter, possibly my daughter (all who grew up in music-performance families, and got really early starts)
are best suited, YET - when they enter into the working aspect (vs. the instructional) that world is an EXTREMELY harsh world.

Knowing all the major scales, being "best in the state", producing a good sound, playing fairly well in tune, and those sorts of things are rudimentary student-level skills/abilities, and not things whereby "a bit of polishing up" is all that's needed. There's an unbelievable amount of work (particularly in 2026) to do (between ages 17 and 24 or so) to be noticed in the performance world...at least, noticed enough to be hired for full-time work, and - as I pointed out earlier - "full-time" work (in the performance field) is defined so very low...I've already posted the wages of the "full-time/core" musicians of the Memphis Symphony, and pointed out that in other cities - when orchestra salaries seem pretty high - those salaries are in cities where the cost of living gobbles up salaries such as those like Hostess Twinkies.

Being an old guy (over-and-over) I've witnessed some of the very best performers walk away from the business, (while still performing) studying the law, real estate, medicine, end up getting into sales (though the internet may well render property-selling jobs obsolete, as well as insurance-selling and car-selling), and other professions that pay more than an entry-level living wage (whereby "full-time" performers must scramble and cobble together other work, in order to live semi-comfortably. Finally, I predict that (in the next no-very-many years) many "full-time" orchestras will retreat to "per-service"...Why? because of [1] waning interest in their product (previous posts of mine - resorting to delivering banal concerts such as playing along with old video games and old movies), etc. [2] because they CAN (with the market flooded with very qualified people who can read black spots on pieces of paper, and play them "musically").

My grown children are really hoping that their daughter ends up in science/technology (whereby her talents there are just as strong, and she's just as much of a quick-study as she is in musical performance...she absorbs hundreds of books - both non-fiction and fiction - annually, in addition to taking post-high-school-level courses in the tenth grade).

Things aren't as they were fifty years ago in "music" in the US (when music performance work was sorta "jumpin"). I personally walked away from academia, because there was so much freelance performance work (whereby no teaching of kids was required to supplement it). People who are old (like me) and play many individual engagements know that the ACTUAL DOLLAR PAY for engagements (considering that dollars are worth roughly 15% of what they were fifty years ago) pay roughly the same numbers of dollars that they did fifty years ago.

When young people live at home with their parents (and people paid to teach them music swoon over their musical prowess - as teachers need all the students they can get in order to remain employed), that's a glorious time in older childrens' lives - with all sorts of positive feedback. Once the teaching ends, the job-seeking begins, and someone manages (in this bleak market) to land a performance job, "management" (though they may patronize a bit in-person) has a TOTALLY difference attitude regarding "the talent". Mostly (unless a musician is very lucky in regards to their employers), management is constantly considering various tacks to reduce what they are paying to "the talent". Notice that management refers to their "non-profit" corporation as "the symphony" and NOT as "the symphony ORCHESTRA". Management is interested in spending their funding on ANYTHING BUT "the talent".

[dp]

-snip-
Reading comprehension isn’t a strong skill set of yours it seems. Very sorry about that. Check out the end of my post for clarity.
-snip-

Oh good grief,*****edit*****

[bloke]

In my last post (just in case the main message is not clear), I attempted to emphasize the fact that adults first have the obligation (to themselves and to others) of being able to carry their own weight.

Their second obligation is to pursue their interests in order to enhance their lives.

Music fulfills the second obligation.

[JCTuba67]

I tend to agree with those who have suggested that this website may not be the most reliable source of information on this subject. To the original poster, I would encourage you to disregard much of the advice being offered here and instead speak directly with professionals and professors at schools near you in order to receive informed and credible guidance. At times, this forum feels more like a circus than a serious place for thoughtful discussion.

My own experience pursuing a music degree was very positive. I studied with Harvey Phillips at Indiana University, and before that I completed my undergraduate degree in physics at a small school in Ohio. Mike, in the Cincinnati Symphony, played a significant role in helping me find my path and pushed my playing to a level that ultimately made it possible for me to study with Harvey.

Unfortunately, this forum can also be unproductive, as some members contribute more noise than meaningful advice. It often seems that certain individuals are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than in offering genuinely helpful guidance. (Bloke, Russian)

[dp]

I tend to agree with those who have suggested that this website may not be the most reliable source of information on this subject. To the original poster, I would encourage you to disregard much of the advice being offered here and instead speak directly with professionals and professors at schools near you in order to receive informed and credible guidance. At times, this forum feels more like a circus than a serious place for thoughtful discussion.

My own experience pursuing a music degree was very positive. I studied with Harvey Phillips at Indiana University, and before that I completed my undergraduate degree in physics at a small school in Ohio. Mike, in the Cincinnati Symphony, played a significant role in helping me find my path and pushed my playing to a level that ultimately made it possible for me to study with Harvey.

Unfortunately, this forum can also be unproductive, as some members contribute more noise than meaningful advice. It often seems that certain individuals are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than in offering genuinely helpful guidance. (Bloke, Russian)

This morning I read some of the thread about favorite band pieces, before I listened to the Dallas Winds play the Carmen Dragon America. If you return here and read this, I hope you have a better morning sometime in the interim