Where to Study the Tuba?

[Tubadad22]

As an All State dad I was pointed to this forum to browse for used tubas by some other tuba parents at the recent TMEA conference.

Our son is a gifted HS Junior. He has made All State-TX three years in a row, and is now considering majoring in performance on the tuba as well as a minor in business. (We actually own our own business, and it would be passed down to him eventually. He works in the summer within the company, and has grown up helping around the shop since he was a young kid).

We want him to really go for his dream of being a professional tuba player in an orchestra or military band. The 4 years of his undergraduate degree is short, and then if it didn’t work out he could always fall back onto the business side of things or take up another interest. We want to see how good he can get on the tuba with the right education. We’re trying to invest in private lessons now as he has been mainly taught by his band director.

So… where do we even start to look? It seems a bit daunting as a parent. What programs/schools and teacher(s)? Where do you even start? Being at a state school isn’t a huge priority, but rather being in the best place he can learn at to see what’s possible at this young stage in his life.

[LeMark]

what area of the state? I'm sure you know it's a BIG state, so it's hard to recommend anyone in specific.

[bloke]

If they are insisting on making their major be in a field where very few find full-time work, maybe choose a school with a teacher who makes the majority of their living from performing and the minority of their living from teaching.
It just seems to me that type of teacher is going to know more about performing than someone who makes most of their living teaching whereas performing is a sideline.
Is there a way that you can get them to be a little bit more interested in business and a little less interested in the tuba?

[sweaty]

Life is short. I recommend that he go for it if it's what he really wants to do. He should do it with full knowledge of the difficulties and statistical (un)likelihood of success. Generally, when people have a fallback, they will fall back. Falling back means not becoming a pro player. He needs to have an "all-or-nothing" approach. If he reaches age 25 or so and it looks like it won't happen or just isn't worth the suffering, he's still a capable young man who knows the family business.

This subject was discussed here:
https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=86264#p86264

I have sat in on many lessons for my son with prominent tuba players. I strongly recommend Aaron Tindall, Chris Olka, Gene Pokorny, Mark Thiele, Kevin Stees, Dave Zerkel, and Andrew Hitz. I think their approaches are very effective at training undergraduates. Additionally, Anne Jelle Visser in Zurich has also had strong success in students performing for a living.

As a businessman, you already know to keep ROI in mind when it comes to his training. I wrote about it here:
https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=118576#p118576

[LeMark]

i have a very good student right now looking at 4 schools. Before Scholarships, Three of them are 65K a year. The state School locally is 12K a year before scholarships. Ouch

[the elephant]

If he is going to be a four-year all-stater in Texas, you need to look into the Curtis Institute and the Juilliard School.

[gocsick]

Parent of a High School student starting a music performance degree this fall..I am not a college trained musician myself...

1) Find a teacher who is 100% realistic with them about the extremely small chance of them getting a job playing the tuba that will pay the bills. As much as we think our kids are amazing we have to realize that there are hundreds of young musicians as good or better... and there are only a handful of jobs.. Honestly it is more likely that your child will be an NBA star than be a professional orchestral tuba player. My son and I played in a low brass ensemble that performed at a regional ITEA conference.. My son was the only tuba player in the group that did not have a music degree... none of them are currently professional musicians. The number of tuba graduates from UNT each year is probably more than the number of orchestral jobs. How many tuba players does an orchestra need? One... Every twenty five years.

2) With with their teacher to identify programs that would be a good fit. For example it was important to my son that he found programs that focus on the bigger music industry, gigging, freelance opportunities rather than just orchestral playing (He did audition for "conservatory" programs but they didn't rise to his to choices.

3) This summer have him email professors at programs of interest and ask for recruitment lesson and visits. This gives then an opportunity to have a one-on-one with professors and learn what it would be like to study with them. This was actually really critical for my son at the two programs he didn't think he would like rose to the top after lessons with the professor.

4) As bloke said.. think carefully about what kind of playing professors do. My son strongly gravitated to professors who were active freelancers and who are involved in other aspects of the music business, who could make introductions into that world.

5) The cost is high and potential returns are low. If he wants to go for the orchestral auditions he will likely need a Masters. So does it make sense to pay through the nose or take out large loans for an undergrad degree. A slightly lower tanked program that offers a lot of scholarships and the right instructor fit might be a better long term investment than chasing top ranked schools (At least that's my son's thinking).

6) Encourage them to double on another instrument. Doubling on bass is great for jazz and pit gigs, trombone and piano are useful as well.. There is an old joke.. What do you call a tuba player with a steady income? A trombonist who hasn’t sold his tuba yet.

There are plenty of people on here who think I'm crazy for encouraging my child to go for music. I've reality I am a firm believer than the real value of an I undergraduate degree isn't necessarily in the subject studies. I am an engineering professor and most of my students will not be engineers in 10 years time.

.

[UncleBeer]

The number of tuba graduates from UNT each year is probably more than the number of orchestral jobs. How many tuba players does an orchestra need? One... Every twenty five years.

I'd say that's a fair bet. Here's a recent picture of the UNT tuba studio (zero euphs; I count 39 tubaists). I know universities are (supposedly) money-making ventures, but how they recruit and encourage this many players in good conscience is beyond me. Sure, some will become band directors (probably not their dream...), but a percentage of them are sure that they'll be the one to win that upcoming orchestral audition.

And echoing Bloke: make sure the professor still plays. Hearing a good example is *so* important in lessons. One perfectly-played attack is worth a bazillion words.

539633618_24767613376178112_5595552379859478906_n.jpg (108.13 KiB) Viewed 706 times

[russiantuba]

Find a program and professor that cares about the student but is honest. More importantly, the student HAS to have ambition and focus.

I posted on social media yesterday that two of my students from a super small program accepted TAs, one for DMA near Blokeville and the other one for a MM at a large program in my state.

I have stated before that I don’t like having many performance majors (both of them started as music ed). My DMA program, at a flagship school, besides me there was normally 1 other true performance major of the 20+ majors. Others who did performance were primarily music ed with high talent levels.

One of those said students plays jazz bass and both of them I worked with playing in commercial/popular music settings. Maybe I should point out that though I have a couple orchestral series I was called for, one being American in Paris, if I had quartet gigs on each of those days playing non orchestral music, I’d have a bit more money and free meals at the end. The ability to play 20 excerpts well just doesn’t make money in this field.

My other program got rid of the BM in performance and recently rebranded one of our BA programs to include a performance option. I gave a first lesson to a student in that for next year (he has a BBb tuba and I’m going to keep him on that to get his musical level ahead!)—I told him anything less than 3 hours of practice in undergrad isn’t going to make it, and that that level started last month so he has some catchup to do on those hours.

————————

I know I am extremely hard on myself and rip my playing, but I tell students who are doing performance who think they are going to suddenly get a ton of gigs in the area after graduating: I tell them that I feel I am not that amazing, but they will have to compete against me, do they think they can? Hint, when I am looking over their shoulder playing a piece I’ve never worked on, their 3 hours of practice a day should be better ;). Fun fact, I wish I had 2 hours on most days to sit there and practice just a few pieces each term. That would be utopia, instead of working a section of a piece or an excerpt 5 minutes between lessons.

————

I’ve been called mean for some of this. I would even tell your son to focus on the business degree. One of my dear friends, the late Richard Watson, had a student recently that was a civil engineering major at a small school who was doing a BA in music. He won the euphonium spot in the US Coast Guard premiere band. Something I have realized recently is that most people are good enough to play a gig. My actual performance degree with the research aspects in graduate school are what really helps my teaching. Being professional like I own a small business, helps me interact with others.

[Rick Denney]

I assume he’s already studying with an orchestra pro. What does he think? If he’s not, start there. You haven’t answered the question of where in Texas you live, but depending on the answer it may be worth a substantial weekly drive to study with the right orchestra pro. Make the most of the time before college.

Rick “missed, through ignorance and competing interests, the opportunity to study with Bill Rose of the Houston Symphony while in high school” Denney

[bloke]

The "elephant in the room" (not referring to Wade, but to the expression) is that the American orchestra bidnuss is dying.
"Classical" music was something that was mostly part-time (in all but a handful of American cities) in the past. People like Bill Bell (NYPO) did ALL SORTS OF THINGS (beside the NYPO) to cobble together a living. Being offered a "full time" retirement job (paying more than everything else previously put together) at Indiana was surely an AMAZING offer for him. Beginning in the 1970's more orchestras pushed to become "full time".
For the past couple of decades (along with societal/cultural decline) this phenomenon is in deep decline. Orchestras (including all of the nation's greatest orchestras) have been resorting to all sorts of "junk" concerts (not just "pops" - some of which are actually pretty good (depending on the music director, the quality of the headliners, and the quality of the arrangements), but playing along with 20-year-old movie soundtracks, afternoon come-as-you-are "lite" concerts, "music in the schools" (one visit to random schools with a "pit orchestra" size version of orchestras, and no follow-up), chamber music in airport concourses (catching 1-second glances from travelers), and other non-rewarding types of work.

People today - who "study" the tuba - should be thinking in terms of "for its own sake" (which should be done AFTER someone has developed skill sets which can actually pay rent, utilities, care fare, taxes, food, clothing, etc.) or "ways to make money playing the thing OUTSIDE of the 'classical' realm, and - damn-well-better-be - able to 'hear' what they're hired to play, because there won't be any printed sheet music.

Besides full-time orchestra jobs being diminished to part-time (or disappearing), the full-time/tenure-track "professor" jobs are disappearing as well...(even though it's gubmunt money...and EVEN THOUGH state universities are heavily subsidized by the federal government, the more the federal government prints money to do this, the less valuable (inflation/hyperinflation) those subsidies become, and state universities are forced to make practical decisions.

[20IV2]

Academic programs (all academic programs, even the prestigious variety), their department chairs and faculty will tell a prospective student anything and everything they want to hear (i.e., lie) about employment prospects following graduation. Don't believe them. Students are little more than cattle to colleges and universities - get 'em in, get 'em out. I know this from direct experience as a former college faculty member and student.

The question to ask someone actually in the business (not a university instructor looking for students) is, "What are the actual prospects my kid will earn a living as a professional tuba player." Better to learn the answer now.

The student in question obviously isn't looking at graduate schools yet, but I wish I had read something like this:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com

before pursuing further education that was a colossal waste of time, despite my research advisor's assurances to the contrary (i.e., he lied).

Perhaps the community of working (better yet, non-working) musicians should put together such a blog.

[hbcrandy]

I remember waiting outside the door to go into the audition room for the New York Philharmonic (NYP) 1979 audition. I talked to the lady that the NYP had posted outside the door. She told me that they had 300 letters of inquiry from throughout the world in response the NYP ad in the "International Musician". They scared 150 away with the repertoire list. Then they started making reference phone calls checking into the qualifications of applicants. The latter narrowed the field of invitees to 95. Warren Deck won the job.

I always told my private students that if they wanted to pursue a performance degree on tuba, to build themselves a safety net. Even if it means becoming and education major, you can still practice and excel as if you are a performance major and take auditions as they become available. I tell them about the last performance the late Karl Wallenda, the legendary circus high wire artist, who fell to his death while walking a wire between two buildings in San Juan, Puerto Rico because he insisted on performing without a safety net.

[Rick Denney]

Guys, I gather from the OP's first post that the young'un is already fully equipped with a safety net. I think he's got the message :)

But even if jobs are few, someone has to get them, and this kid is showing a lot of chops in just about the most competitive environment for high-schoolers in the country.

Rick "who changed courses after age 20 and took no harm from it" Denney

[bloke]

Guys, I gather from the OP's first post that the young'un is already fully equipped with a safety net. I think he's got the message :)

But even if jobs are few, someone has to get them, and this kid is showing a lot of chops in just about the most competitive environment for high-schoolers in the country.

Rick "who changed courses after age 20 and took no harm from it" Denney

There are international youth solo competitions, and not just "all-state".
I have a granddaughter who started winning these when she was barely 15, as well as bumping 18-year-olds out of the way at Interlochen Arts Camp in the summers. Her parents are musicians, and are concerned that she may choose to follow in the same path, whereby she has just as strong talents in so many other fields. (She's sort of done with high school, and any college level freshmen and sophomore level courses offered by her school system are those that she's mostly involved in. She sucks up involved fiction and nonfiction books as if they are mashed potatoes and gravy.) Her parents have asked me to talk to her about the music thing...

This was when she was 15:



Texans: I'm aware of their egocentrism as well as their provincialism. It's sort of entertaining and sort of tiresome at the same time.

[Misfituba64]

This may not be the most reliable place to seek advice on this subject. Since you are in Texas, I would strongly recommend reaching out directly to the many colleges and universities across the state for accurate guidance. Texas All-State recognition is not particularly significant outside of Texas, and even within the state, it is only one factor among many. For that reason, I would not place too much emphasis on it.

A good starting point would be to contact some of the top music schools in Texas. In no particular order: Rice University, The University of Texas at Austin, Baylor University, Texas Tech University, Texas Christian University, the University of North Texas, and Stephen F. Austin State University. The professors at these institutions will be well qualified to answer your questions and provide valuable guidance.

There are certainly many other strong programs as well, but this would be an excellent place to begin.

[bloke]

Try to not spend any money on such a degree, if pursued.
They are already going to spend 3 - 5 years of their youth on it.

re: egocentrism and provincialism of Texans..
I'm NOT at all referring to the parent who is seeking advice. They have shown absolutely no evidence of these.

The reality is that - as one passes through the various levels that are beyond high school and beyond high school excellence - each subsequent level is more difficult to be noticed and to float to the top, and even if someone does and ends up with their dream job, even the best jobs only sort of barely pay a living wage, whereby these musicians have to do a whole bunch of other things if they hope to live comfortably, and to be able to buy things and opportunities for their own children or for themselves even.

My daughter went to school and played in the local youth orchestra (and of course all-state) with Brad Gemeinhardt. He graduated from Interlochen Arts Academy (where high school aged kids in the arts attend high school with the intention being noticed) about the time that she went into it.
He's currently principal horn in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, which is probably the highest paying horn job in the US, but - whether he wants to or not, and whether he loves the lifestyle or not - he lives in New York City or thereabouts, whereby such a salary would go quite far in quite a few states or even some other big cities - but not so far in New York City.

As is known, Memphis Tennessee has a lot of problems. I moved out of there 20 years ago and live out in the country. They have what's called a "core" orchestra - which many orchestras have, whereas the rest of the orchestra's musicians are paid "per service" (read: a whole bunch less).
The core musicians are considered to be full-time, but their gross salary (and first fiddle "concertmaster" is surely paid more but I'm sure not some impressive amount) is not even quite $34,000. . All of them have pretty fancy and crazy-expensive musical educations in their past.

[bort2.0]

Study with the guy whose students get all the job. I don't remember his name.

That and/or study where the gigs are. NY, LA, where else

Alternatively, if you've got the budget, and he's got the skill, find somewhere study in europe. I forget how all that works, and I'm sure it's much harder for an American to get in. But why not. Someone's got to take over eventually is the next round of American tuba players in europe.

[bort2.0]

If the money in the back of job is there, I said go for it. Go for it hard.

Like Rick said, there are jobs, and somebody has to fill them. If nobody even tries, everything pretty much collapses where it is.

In a way, it reminds me of those astronauts that just went around the Moon and back. I'm sure when they were kids they may have said hey, I'm going to the moon when I'm an adult. And people probably laughed at them. And even in college, people probably looked at them and said fine you'll be an engineer, but only like a couple people ever go to the Moon. And they may very well have never gone to the moon, and still have their job in the end. But if you don't try, you're never going to get there.

[bloke]

Study with the guy whose students get all the job. I don't remember his name.

Probably referring to Aaron Tindall down in Florida, who has placed so very many students in full-time military band jobs and high profile orchestras, including the LAPO.
I don't talk to him about anything other than sending a few jokes back and forth through Facebook Messenger, but I'm sort of under the impression that he is shunned (yes? no?) by some of the other college tuba studio teachers at other universities... I don't know. Does success breed contempt? (Notice that - even though he's probably - indisputably...??- the most successful teacher, as far as students obtaining full-time work playing - no one else has mentioned his name. )

There are jobs, and it's true that someone will fill them,
But there are also lotteries, and someone's going to win them.
Admittedly, with these jobs, a person has to be among the most competent, but it's not always THE most competent who is hired, just as it is in all other fields.

Some may not like what I've said in this thread, but I don't believe there's a single sentence that I've typed here which is in the least bit misleading.