Brass Band Basses

[anadmai]

And I am used to being sniffed at by pasty-munching brass band equipment snobs.

This made me chuckle. I may be a purist.. but not a snob. You never go full snob.

What's a pasty?

[bloke]

And I am used to being sniffed at by pasty-munching brass band equipment snobs.

This made me chuckle. I may be a purist.. but not a snob. You never go full snob.

What's a pasty?

perhaps he's referring to - though "hastly"-typed (American expression) the "arts and croissants crowd"...(??)

not exactly, but somewhat/partially analogous to

I prefer single-malt Scotch

OK, then, which ones?

...uhh...yeah, well...ALL of them...

I have to admit being in Blake's camp.
- The 17"-bell BB-flat made-in-GB intonation characteristics (with a couple of wonky pitches - as with every tuba) were FAR superior to those made later (with larger bells and larger other large bows)...and offered a nice throaty (in a good way) resonance and clear beginnings of sounds.
- The 15" bell E-flat made so much more sense than putting a 19" bell on an instrument which is supposed to (delicately) follow along an octave higher than the contrabasses for emphasis. "Because John Fletcher..." (or "Because any one person...") is a poor reason for most anything. Today, to achieve that type of resonance (and decent cosmetics) involves purchasing a 19" bell instrument, ordering a YEB-321 bell, and swapping out the bells.

I've witnessed wind-instrument size inflation over my lifetime (across the board). It allows players to do more work to achieve the same intensity as before (yet feel like they are "really putting out the big sound"). ex: I wonder how many people area aware that the compensating baritones (not that long ago) were only .504" bore with an 8" bell (with a resonance that was far more easily contrasted and discernible from the sound of a euphonium).

Tuba Goddhh activated.

[Mary Ann]

Until recently our Eb section was two NStars. The BBb section was / is a Yam 822 CC and some kind of old rotary BBb.
The other NStar player has developed health problems and has at least temporarily been replaced with some kind of Yamaha piston Eb. At our last concert people in the audience proclaimed we are the best band in Tucson, so I don't think we had any particular sound problems from the tuba section. I think the players have a lot more to do with the blend of the sound than the instruments do.

[Sousaswag]

As far as blend is concerned, sure, a section of 3+1 instruments will sound the most similar, but I’m still going to sound like “me” on one of those. I still have to blend with the other guys regardless of what I’m playing, you know?

Naturally there's only so much that instruments help with for blending. With that said, what's your favorite horn to play in a brass band on? Like many things, there is a certain appeal of the tradition and uniformity of paired sets but if you could build a section in the US would you want to provide matching horns or have people just play their own instruments which they are accustomed to (or even if there were an Eb/BBb requirement).

My favorite is my 2141 Eb so far, but I suspect my rebuilt Holton 345 will be excellent in the BBb Bass category.

I would let people pick and choose what they want to play.

Were I to ask for traditional 3+1, the Bessons are very good. I’d stick with them.

Not traditional? A set of Willson Eb’s with whatever large BBb the player has. Two Willson Eb’s with two Holton 345’s? That’d be pretty cool!

[gocsick]

I think the players have a lot more to do with the blend of the sound than the instruments do.

I am not nearly at the level of top brass band bass players... but I 100% agree.

One of my best friends and scientific mentors is an excellent trumpet player. Not a "professional" but does a lot of paid freelance work in the Philadelphia/New York area.. Theater, Church gigs, smaller pay per service orchestra work.. that kind of stuff. A couple years ago he quit a brass band he was in for many years playing 2nd and repiano cornet. They got a new director who wanted all the cornets to use the same mouthpiece so they would "blend" . One rehearsal with the new director and he decided it wouldn't be fun anymore and gave up his seat.

[Thattubaguy345]

I think the players have a lot more to do with the blend of the sound than the instruments do.

I am not nearly at the level of top brass band bass players... but I 100% agree.

One of my best friends and scientific mentors is an excellent trumpet player. Not a "professional" but does a lot of paid freelance work in the Philadelphia/New York area.. Theater, Church gigs, smaller pay per service orchestra work.. that kind of stuff. A couple years ago he quit a brass band he was in for many years playing 2nd and repiano cornet. They got a new director who wanted all the cornets to use the same mouthpiece so they would "blend" . One rehearsal with the new director and he decided it wouldn't be fun anymore and gave up his seat.

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. Mouthpieces are definitely a personal choice.

[Thattubaguy345]

My favorite is my 2141 Eb so far, but I suspect my rebuilt Holton 345 will be excellent in the BBb Bass category.

I would let people pick and choose what they want to play.

Were I to ask for traditional 3+1, the Bessons are very good. I’d stick with them.

Not traditional? A set of Willson Eb’s with whatever large BBb the player has. Two Willson Eb’s with two Holton 345’s? That’d be pretty cool!

I'm sure that Holton will at the very least be fun to play with the band. That sounds like my kind of non traditional section there.

[andycat]

[
We currently have 2 BBb and 1 EEb Neo, the other is a Sovereign, but we'd like another Neo.
Used to be everyone on Besson/Boosey, but now there's a mix and match. A lot more Yamaha than there ever was, bass wise. The BBb especially is a step up, both ergonomically and in tuning.

What's better (in your opinion)... A Yamaha from now or a Besson/B&H from the 80s.

Having owned all, and I'm only speaking BBb here, I'd rather have any off the shelf Neo than an off the shelf Imperial, 992 or early 994 (as they all squeeze into that decade, just). BUT a really good 992 would be equal to a Neo, it was just pot luck who'd made it.

[Mary Ann]

....They got a new director who wanted all the cornets to use the same mouthpiece so they would "blend" . One rehearsal with the new director and he decided it wouldn't be fun anymore and gave up his seat.

How did such an idiot get the conductor job in the first place? That has to be the most asinine thing I've ever heard of. Maybe he wanted them to get surgery so they would all have the same face structure and air supply, too.

[anadmai]

but does a lot of paid freelance work in the Philadelphia/New York area.. A couple years ago he quit a brass band he was in for many years playing 2nd and repiano cornet. They got a new director who wanted all the cornets to use the same mouthpiece so they would "blend" . One rehearsal with the new director and he decided it wouldn't be fun anymore and gave up his seat.

Knowing the bands in the area and knowing the ones who had a new bandmaster, only one band comes to mind. It's not Imperial, Chesapeake or Lancaster...or Penn View...

Hmmm.

[iiipopes]

Besson, Besson, Besson! Actually, at least in the UK, and at least until recently, you would not be allowed to compete if you played anything other than a Besson. Add to that the Wick 1 is the default mouthpiece to give the deep, broad, organ-like tone that is the standard of modern brass band tonality.

[anadmai]

Add to that the Wick 1 is the default mouthpiece to give the deep, broad, organ-like tone that is the standard of modern brass band tonality.

I just started getting used to my DW3L. LOL.

[gocsick]

Knowing the bands in the area and knowing the ones who had a new bandmaster, only one band comes to mind. It's not Imperial, Chesapeake or Lancaster...or Penn View...

Hmmm.

I moved from Philadelphia in 2010 and this was before that, and I met him in 2005 so it would have been somewhere in that time period.

[Mary Ann]

Besson, Besson, Besson! Actually, at least in the UK, and at least until recently, you would not be allowed to compete if you played anything other than a Besson. Add to that the Wick 1 is the default mouthpiece to give the deep, broad, organ-like tone that is the standard of modern brass band tonality.

Apparently no matter that the Wick 1's rim sits halfway across your cheeks.

[bloke]

mouthpieces:

I think it's an overreach to require all the cornet players to use the same mouthpieces, but it's not overreaching to require that they all use funnel cup mouthpieces - rather than bowl cup mouthpieces.

The whole time that I was growing up and beyond, most of the time when you walked into an American music store, cornet mouthpieces were nothing more than trumpet mouthpieces with cornet shanks. A real cornet mouthpiece - in my view - should feature a funnel cup (as should a flugelhorn mouthpiece).

I don't see it as unreasonable to ask all the cornet players to use funnel cup mouthpieces - so that they all sound like cornets. Again, any of them who use bowl cup mouthpieces are going to sound like trumpets... but (again) to demand that they all use the very same funnel cup mouthpiece is an overreach.

Even as a young boy, when I heard a couple of the other children in the band play cornets (with bowl cup de facto trumpet mouthpieces...and one of them was a remarkably good player, just for what it's worth) I noticed that they really didn't sound any different from the trumpets, and sincerely wondered what the point was of a cornet. Still in my teen years - when I begin hearing that cornets are supposed to sound more mellow than trumpets, I questioned that as well, and for the same reason. It wasn't until actually quite a bit later that I actually laid eyes on a proper cornet mouthpiece.

I tend to wonder (??) if the practice of American cornetists using cup mouthpieces on their cornets can be traced back to the early jazz era, wereby such mouthpieces put out a more brash and louder type of sound than a classic cornet funnel cup mouthpiece.

[andycat]

Besson, Besson, Besson! Actually, at least in the UK, and at least until recently, you would not be allowed to compete if you played anything other than a Besson. Add to that the Wick 1 is the default mouthpiece to give the deep, broad, organ-like tone that is the standard of modern brass band tonality.

This has definitely not been the case in the last 30 years...

[2nd tenor]

Besson, Besson, Besson! Actually, at least in the UK, and at least until recently, you would not be allowed to compete if you played anything other than a Besson. Add to that the Wick 1 is the default mouthpiece to give the deep, broad, organ-like tone that is the standard of modern brass band tonality.

At the root of this view (^^) lies the competitive nature of most British Brass Bands the vast majority of which enter musical competitions (contests) with a hunger to win them. The players of each band have to perform to the best of their ability and if that best isn’t deemed good enough then their band might ‘loose’ them - brutal, but it happens. After that comes the quality of instruments, poor instruments hold a band back and better ones help it forwards. Every little improvement matters in contests that can be won or lost by just a point or two - fine judgements are made.

Things move one. At one time Besson made the best instruments, you’d be daft to play anything else ‘cause it could cost you a winning result. With care brass instruments last a long time (many decades), and tubas are darned expensive hence Bessons Tubas will likely remain in a Band for a long time. If a band had funds to buy modern instruments that were better than their Bessons then they’d likely do it and enjoy the marginal advantage that they gave. Whether other manufacturers produce better instruments than Besson is open to debate, with respect to Tubas there won’t be much in it but my suspicion is that some other manufacturers do offer better. That said another option is to have a midlife instrument stripped, restored and carefully rebuilt by a top class brass specialist company, such instruments can come back playing better than they did when first sold. That’s what one local contesting band did and the instrument is now ‘something special’.

I’m a strong believer in it’s what you do with what you’ve got that matters, but when the other guy (the competition) plays as good as you do then what instrument you play can tip the scales in either your favour or his favour. Everything and anything that’ll give you a competitive edge matters, even if it means letting your Besson go in favour of (say) a Yamaha.

[Mary Ann]

I personally find it so odd (and sad, for me) that music is put in the same competitive arena as sports. I just don't get it, frankly. It's about the music, isn't it? It was the competition that ruined music for me when I was a kid, because it seemed the only thing that mattered to my parents was whether I was first chair, whether I won this or that scholarship, whether I was better than the kid down the street. Only well into adulthood did I manage to get rid of most (but only most) of that and use music for what music is for. Which is, the music.

[gocsick]

mouthpieces:

I tend to wonder (??) if the practice of American cornetists using cup mouthpieces on their cornets can be traced back to the early jazz era, wereby such mouthpieces put out a more brash and louder type of sound than a classic cornet funnel cup mouthpiece.

I was just reading something on this not too long ago .. but I'll be damned if I can actually remember where.

The basic premise was at the right at the time of the early jazz scene you basically had Late 19th century European style short cornets with for cookie cutter V cup mouthpieces with a soft responsive tone. They sounded great in concert halls where people were sitting quietly to listen to music but didn't project well enough to be clearly heard in bars and dance halls where there was a lot of conversation and background noise. On the other hand you had peashooter trumpets which could peel the paint off the walls with a laser like sound beam but sounded brash... So the trumpet became more cornet like leading to the French Besson design and cornets became more trumpet like leading to the American Long Cornet design (classic American corner with a shepards crook). Same with Mouthpieces... cornet motives adapted wider rims and shallower cups and American trumpet cups became deeper for "legit" playing. The end result is that by the 1940s student trumpets and cornets were basically converged on the same sound and playing characteristics.

At least that's the way I remember my reading. If I can find the article it there who wrote it.. I will throw it up here.

[iiipopes]

Besson, Besson, Besson! Actually, at least in the UK, and at least until recently, you would not be allowed to compete if you played anything other than a Besson. Add to that the Wick 1 is the default mouthpiece to give the deep, broad, organ-like tone that is the standard of modern brass band tonality.

Apparently no matter that the Wick 1's rim sits halfway across your cheeks.

The cup diameter is only 1.28 inches, or 32.5 mm. It's not that wide.