Holton 345 Valves VS Mienl Weston Valves

[LargeTuba]

I bought some replacement valves for my holton 345 and I couldn’t help but notice the similarities. Obviously the routing of the tubing is different, but the valve porting is very similar, especially the 1st and second valves. Makes me wonder if Mienl Weston took some inspiration.







The 1st valve slides are the same diameter. The first valve slide on the holton actually fits in the mienl weston set with no finagling.

[The Big Ben]

Are you exchanging the entire valve cluster? What's the reasoning behind that?

[bloke]

The really different ones are York pistons, which are astonishingly lightweight, long, and feature a very long throw which just about avoids any port distortion.

[matt g]

Is that cluster completely new or salvage?

That arch shaped length for the fourth valve on my 2165 is apparently a great place for water to have collected over the years and will need a replacement eventually.

Being hopeful…

[the elephant]

I need a valve set/machine like that one. Will it eventually be for sale?

[Sousaswag]

Wow! Do tell us all the details!

[LargeTuba]

I’m replacing the entire valve section on my holton. On the holton the 4th valve bore is 0.830” but the port exiting the valve is 0.750, which I believe leads to some response issues. Neither are for sale for the time being.

The leadpipe and the main tuning slide are not factory. The main tuning slide doesn’t have a taper, and the leadpipe is way too big. Installing valves with a smaller 4th valve will allow me to have a tapered main tuning slide. I also purchased a slightly longer and smaller leadpipe. I will also be installing a 5th valve hopefully.

The purpose of this post was just to show that the first and second valves of the holton and the Mienl Weston set are virtually identical. And the general shape of the valves is very similar.

The valves are new old stock. They are pre-Buffet. I doubt a new cluster could be ordered at this time.

[matt g]

@LargeTuba, thank you for the information.

No doubt that the slide layout is reminiscent of a Holton, as most of the inspiration for that block came from Warren Deck wanting to make a modern version of the 345 in CC with some fun add-ons with the 2165. I’m pretty sure that the 2165 came first with the 2145 following then the 2155.

[arpthark]

Besides them having similar model numbers and the later Big Valve block, I've never thought the 2145/55/65 had too much in common. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Grumpikins]

I have a mw model 2145 that i bought in 2001/2? At that time, mw listed it as being designed by sam pilafian with the focus on jazz playing.

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[arpthark]

Besides them having similar model numbers and the later Big Valve block, I've never thought the 2145/55/65 had too much in common. Correct me if I am wrong.

The valve section and tubing on all three is very similar with some mild changes in third and fourth routing to accommodate the main body.

The MW2000 changed the orientation of the fifth valve by rotating it axially 90 degrees. No idea why other than it being more faithful to the original 2155 prototype Warren Deck designed.

Having three distinct horns all with the same valve block and tubing layout is a pretty smart way to save some manufacturing costs. It actually seemed to work out fine across those three models.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[cjk]

I’m replacing the entire valve section on my holton. On the holton the 4th valve bore is 0.830” but the port exiting the valve is 0.750, which I believe leads to some response issues. Neither are for sale for the time being.
....

Is the 4th valve on the MW set not larger than the other three? would it not have the same problem/feature/bug?

[LargeTuba]

The MW valves are designed better and do not feature the same flaws that the Holton valves do. The MW valves feature a smooth increase in bore.

[matt g]

I’m replacing the entire valve section on my holton. On the holton the 4th valve bore is 0.830” but the port exiting the valve is 0.750, which I believe leads to some response issues. Neither are for sale for the time being.
....

Is the 4th valve on the MW set not larger than the other three? would it not have the same problem/feature/bug?

The MW bore is 19mm (0.748”) for 1-3 and 20mm (0.787”) for 4. This Holton set seems to be a massive dilation of the tubing with little/no change in porting.

[LargeTuba]

I’m replacing the entire valve section on my holton. On the holton the 4th valve bore is 0.830” but the port exiting the valve is 0.750, which I believe leads to some response issues. Neither are for sale for the time being.
....

Is the 4th valve on the MW set not larger than the other three? would it not have the same problem/feature/bug?

The MW bore is 19mm (0.748”) for 1-3 and 20mm (0.787”) for 4. This Holton set seems to be a massive dilation of the tubing with little/no change in porting.

Exactly!

You said that a lot more eloquently.

[dp]

[bloke]

dp's popcorn is due to the fact that there has long been a debate over whether this helps, hurts, or doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

me...??
(and assuming that my own theories are just as full of $h!t as are anyone's else) I'm looking for as much resistance as I can find to build in.
I'm not looking for air flow (air flow...wtf...!?!?...when I'm working as hard as I can to prevent air from escaping from ME, so that my lips vibrate at various frequencies which line up with overtones found on various changeable lengths of my tubas), but air column resonance...and I don't particularly appreciate/"like" having to work my ass off in order for that to happen (whether playing "loud" or "soft").

In FatBastard (a Miraphone 98 hybrid "kaiser" B-flat), I just reconfig'ed the 4th circuit somewhat, whereby longer tubes (along with a bore spacer or two) defined that more of the #4 circuit bore was 21.2mm - rather than (leaving the inside of a good bit of outside tubing exposed) considerable portions of its interior diameter being more like 21.7mm...ie. (possibly, but who really knows - other than "theoretically") more resistance.

Is the really low range of this instrument now "better/easier/more facile"...??
ABSOLUTELY...by my imagination and expectation of desirable results.
WHO KNOWS(??)...via "getting real".

Scientists (if any ?? aren't biased in favor of their pet theories) and engineers (if/when they actually test their designs via however-many-blind tests - and - preferably - in the worst-imaginable situations) can only suspect that their stuff is real. [INTENTIONAL TROLL]

[LargeTuba]

@bloke the point of this is to add more resistance in the 4th valve, I’m bumping down the bore nearly 1.5mm. I’m also eliminating lots of straight tubing in the bugle, and I’ll have a smaller main tuning slide. Again, putting more resistance in the bugle.

The original Holton valves need to be replaced. So at minimum this is still an upgrade.

[bloke]

@bloke the point of this is to add more resistance in the 4th valve, I’m bumping down the bore nearly 1.5mm. I’m also eliminating lots of straight tubing in the bugle, and I’ll have a smaller main tuning slide. Again, putting more resistance in the bugle.

The original Holton valves need to be replaced. So at minimum this is still an upgrade.

That makes sense, particularly considering that removal/rebuilding/reinstallation is no longer c. $700, but (probably) two-and-a-half times that amount (just as with the daily necessities which we must continue to purchase have mostly increased in cost/price by roughly the same percentage).

As the retirement of Dave Secrist (as Anderson probably never bothered to research how far they could push the pricing of this service) overlapped with our rulers shutting down the economy and printing endless trillions of dollars (in addition to the SUPPLY of this service - probably - being cut by about 2/3rds), it's only logical that the total cost of this had jumped up $1000 higher than the cost prior to all of that. (As weary as he likely was of his work, I wonder if he would have stayed on, had they [1] paid him a full pension, PLUS [2] doubled his salary, via doubling the cost of the service.)

Of course, "all of that" also defined that (as I had only sold a few of those really nice 4+1 JP valvesets) the ones that I had been offering became unavailable as well...and I have no idea whether they will ever become available again, nor at what sort of pricing.

The Holton 345 that I rebuilt for a customer...
Not only did I judge those pistons/casings to be "in darn good condition (with the only thing I did being to clean them, gently lap them, and retrofit them with Willson top-installing valve guides - reusing the Holton screws - along with some Bach stems and some Yamaha buttons), but the customer wasn't in-the-least interested in funding a "valve rebuild" (as they also judged the valves to be in good condition).

bloke "New rotors/casings - hands down - are far better than "rebuilt" rotors, but (with craftsmen such as Dave and Dan), rebuilt PISTONS/casings can easily end up better-than-new."