My take on MAW valves - Long term thoughts

[Sousaswag]

Okay, it's been a little over a year since my 2165 came back from it's first round of Baerification. I've played on it A LOT, from simple etudes and characteristic studies to a whole performance at Carnegie Hall.

So, MAW valves. Do they actually do what they claim to do? Here is what Martin has on his website: "With the MAW Valve, soundwaves traveling through the instrument are less disrupted. Playing is easier. There is a fuller sound with less effort. Notes tend to be more stable with increased clarity."

Point one - Is playing easier? I think so, in this particular area especially: Slurring, especially between registers, or from open pitches to valved ones. Like open C to 4th valve D on C tuba. There is certainly a nice change there that I noticed.

Point two - Fuller sound - I don't know that they really make the horn sound "fuller," or whatever that means. I still sound like me regardless of the valves in the tuba. What I CAN comment on with this point is that with the ease of playability that you gain, it is easier to produce a good sound in all registers, so, in that sense, yes, it's true.

Point three - Stability - I think on this particular instrument, low G was the weirdo note, not unlike many Hirsbrunner models. I've toyed around with throwing the original 4th valve in, and then the MAW valve, and it's generally a little better with the MAW valve in. It could be that I'm more used to it with the MAW in, so take that as you will.

With that out of the way, I will say this - If your tuba is out of tune, or there's something wrong with it, MAW valves won't fix it. They won't fix bad technique, either.

Another point I'd like to make is this one: The weight savings compared to the original pistons is real, legitimate, and a HUGE plus. This instrument even has the original small valve block. MAW valves DO exist in this size, and they are very, very, very light. This point would be enough for me to tell people to go buy them. For the large valve block especially.

Combine that with the featherweight finger buttons and stems, and you'll really notice how much easier the pistons work. Speaking of those, Martin is really a stand up guy. He sent me two sets with my latest purchase because he didn't have what I originally requested in stock.

With all that said, are they worth the price? Well, I purchased a set for my Eb tuba. That should tell you enough.

Look, the fact of the matter is, some of you will love them, and some of you will hate them. Even if the valves didn't accomplish what he says they did, I'd still seek them out just for the weight savings entirely. That's enough for me to deem them worth it. I think, for the most part, they DO accomplish those things.

**NOTE: They did NOT drop right in. I had to get them fit into the casings, which is probably a good thing. I would bet most of you would experience something similar. The best way to do it would be to bring your tuba directly to Martin (obviously), but the next best thing is bringing it to a tech you trust and having them shipped to you.

Oh, and they come already vented, which I really like.

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These are the small block valves when I got them. The large block set is still with USPS (ugh), and I'll update when I get them. I'll also take some comparison shots of the MAW valves and the original valves.

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[bloke]

I dare say that they might feel better if you oiled up some extremely fine sandpaper and converted those circular laping lines into vertical valve stroke lines, but they're yours to do with as you wish.

Yeah. The overwhelmingly noticeable advantage is the reduced weight.
Fitting them into casings requires extreme care (more extreme care than with standard pistons), because they're not particularly stable. Okay, they're stable, but not as stable as far as putting the same sideways pressure on them that one can exert with standard construction pistons. The most noticeable feature of them allows them to be folded - if someone gets a bit too carried away trying to hurry up the fitting process. ... spoken from experience. (No, I've never folded any of them but - fitting a very tight set into a set of King valve casings - I knew (from the feedback I was getting) that - had I exceeded the amount of sideways pressure that I was exerting, the result would not have been good.)

With the King valve set mounted on my 32-inches tall York B-flat body, the main benefit I received was not reduced weight but (as they originally fit into the King casings just about like Bach 869 pistons fit into Olds O-99 casings - noticeably oversized) the benefit that I received was closer tolerances vs. the 1990s vintage (very good, A- fit) o.e.m. King pistons (as King pistons aren't large enough to weigh very much anyway).

Moreover, once I built that instrument with the original pistons, there was no way that I was going to tear it all back down simply to get slightly better valve tolerances from some valve rebuilder (that I had never used before), but fitting in oversized MS pistons (pistons which I had traded for work, therefore no cash outlay) resulting in tolerances just as good as a top grade valve rebuild... now that was worth doing.

[Sousaswag]

I should mention… Those of you that have the small block tubas, or Kings/similar, Hirsbrunner (I don’t know if they used the same valve block as MW/B&S)- I don’t know if those pistons are readily available or in stock.

The standard used by everything large valve block seems to always be ready to go, though.

[Mikelynch]

Just so all are aware, Martin also has an "intermediate" MAW valve, that is not quite as open as the standard MAW valve, but is much lighter than B&S stock pistons, and the surface is also much more "slippery" than the B&S stainless steel pistons.I have them on two B&S horns now.

If like me, the MAW valves are a little too open for you, you may find the intermediate valves to be more satisfactory, and a big improvement over the stock pistons.

Mike

[Sousaswag]

That’s really cool. What do they look like? If you send me pictures I’ll post them here.

[UncleBeer]

...and the surface is also much more "slippery" than the B&S stainless steel pistons.I have them on two B&S horns now.

Interesting. I get a fair amount of repair work from folks who've bought these, but they stick often (but the original valves don't). Seems there might be issues with exact sizing. Just my observation.

[kingrob76]

I purchased a set for my Getzen, and ended up having them nickel-plated before final fitting. They do not stick. Turns out, my Getzen has had an interesting life and the valve casings are not *exactly* circular, so the extra plating ended up being a very good thing prior to final fitting. I could have opted to have the casings bored out to be perfectly circular but that didn't seem necessary. Slurs are SO easy now and combined with all of the mods that Lee Stofer does this thing is a pretty sweet horn to play.

Full disclosure: The original pistons were absolute poop, physically. Anything would be an improvement, but I was able to borrow a different set of stock pistons for a while and they didn't play all that different.

[Sousaswag]

I remember you mentioning something about your Getzen valve experience. Glad you got these to work.

My valves came in today, and they’re absolutely as expected. They will need to be fit into the casings, so for now, I just stuck the buttons on the stock pistons to lighten things up even more until I can get them into the horn.

[bloke]

...and the surface is also much more "slippery" than the B&S stainless steel pistons.I have them on two B&S horns now.

Interesting. I get a fair amount of repair work from folks who've bought these, but they stick often (but the original valves don't). Seems there might be issues with exact sizing. Just my observation.

... I've only fitted two sets into two tubas, and they were both my own tubas.

The first set was into a so-called big valve B&S factory tuba.
It was a remarkably fine tuba, but the factory didn't finish manufacturing the valve casings. (I bought that too but used, and I couldn't imagine how the previous owner of the instrument managed to play it with the piston casings as rough as they were.) I'd already addressed the valve casings issue with the original valves. The set that I purchased from Martin, I managed to get them behaving themselves within a day or so and without using any sort of abrasive compound at all.
A shortcut that I used was too transfer the guides over from the original Pistons to Martin's aftermarket pistons, because I had already fitted those guides to the factory pistons and the casings' guide slots.

The second set was a set for which I bartered straightening out a really beat up 25J in exchange for the set of pistons that the owner of them no longer was interested in owning.
They were too tight in the 1990s 2431 valve section that I used on a tuba that I built for myself. The fact that they were too tight delighted me, because the only reason I really wanted them was with the hope that they would be too tight, which would give me a chance to get a closer fit vs. the 30-year-old original pistons...which we're in okay condition, but there's a combination of not having been manufactured 30 years before that (when King was King) plus 30 years of wear since the 1990s.

Those second hand King-fitting pistons of Martin's don't stick either. Every once in awhile they get spit stuck, because I use that tuba less than I use my other tuba (which is built in the same key)... but they don't stick... and again, I was gleeful that I was able to get closer tolerances in exchange for just working my ass off removing some dents from a 25j for a few hours and on a set of pistons (fitting them to an instrumen) for about an hour.

I've already stated this, but Martin's pistons are delicate with the combination of the thinner wall and the C shape. They require remarkable care and patience to fit them into casings, particularly when the fit is snug and they actually do require fitting and not just installing.

I suspect that people who have problems with them are mostly (mostly... personally having no problems with them, and having not watched anyone install them other than myself, I can't speak for what I only suspect other people have done or not done) people who have problems as a result of these two things:

- They hired someone to fit them in their casings who either lacks attention to detail, lacks resolve, or both. The installer gets those valves going up and down ten times in a row, considers that to be an adequate test, and considers the fitting jobs to be complete.

- The installer realizes that those pistons flex very easily, and it scares them enough to decide that - once they go up and down in the casings - they had better quit while they're ahead, rather than risking trashing those delicate pistons, the casings, or both and then having to be responsible for it.

I'm not accusing any individuals or judging anyone.

To review, the two sets that I've installed, I installed on my own instruments. They don't stick and they were two different types, with two different levels of how much work required to get them be reliable.

I'm not God's gift to repair work, but my ~own~ $h!t ~IS~ going to work, when I'm done with it.

I've noticed that Yamaha has some remarkably clever porting with very little distortion and a pretty darn short stroke. Weril/Brazil sousaphone pistons seem to have copied that design to some extent, even though the quality of those Brazil (only decoratively nickel plated brass) pistons was laughable. I've played a Yamaha 826, but I've never serviced one. The pistons to which I refer are those found on the Yamaha sousaphones, whereby the bore is a half millimeter smaller (18.5mm).