USA (symphonic use) bass-tuba-phobia (a nonsensical rant)

[bloke]

So many "classic classical" pieces - which include tuba parts - specify BASS tuba which - overwhelmingly, at least in the USA - are played on CONTRABASS tubas.

Why do we (yeah...the collective "we"...NOT the "accusatory/condemning" we...from the "questioning me") do this?

Most tuba players (who play in orchestras) own bass tubas.

I wonder how many American tuba players are even aware that Strauss specified BASS tuba for Heldenleben?

(People see the low pitches in the part, and - yes? - auto-think, "uhg...me use contrabass tuba")...

...while ignoring the stuff above the staff - which (often) sounds sorta "hooty" played on yorkaphones.

I'm just going to stick with this one piece of music as an example to
- avoid writing a typical bloke diatribal thesis (as this is likely to end up longish anyway), and
- because (of all the stuff that - in America - is nearly auto-chosen to be played on contrabass C instruments) this might (??) be one whereby very few even realize that the composer specifies ~bass~ tuba.

This particular piece uses the complete typically R.Strauss-written range of the instrument (as do most of the other instruments' parts written for this piece.
- The low stuff is easy to play on a bass tuba.
- The high stuff is easy to play on a bass tuba.
- I tend to suspect that Herr Strauss wasn't seeking a sousaphone-ish sonority...just (well...) a tuba.

Some players have even turned the part into a show-off thing, dropped some of it an octave, and additionally commandeering other instruments' subsequent pitches. Why?

Take a look at rehearsal letter 8:
The "dreaded low C" only appears a couple of times, and in passing.
...and take a look at the muted section (rehearsal numbers 70 - 76). With a bass tuba, the player can ACTUALLY use the required mute, because there ARE tuba mutes manufactured/sold which are large enough to fit properly in the bells of most all BASS tubas.

To piss off everyone (who I've not already pissed off), I'm sure that - now - some the players with the piston valve "6/4 Monster F tubas" (which all sound like contrabass tubas) will now pull them out, run through this part, and begin to consider using it on this excerpt at the next cattle-call.

...but bloke, I've played this piece - so far, three times - ALWAYS on my not-jumbo F tuba.
- bravo
ok then, bloke, how many times have YOU played it, and what instrument did YOU use when YOU'VE played it?
- Admittedly, I've only played it a couple of times, and - both times - I played the tenor tuba part...yeah...with an English-style compensating euphonium...I didn't have access to a German-style rotary one, and (though the compensating ones are pretty squirrelly) the German-style ones (having now owned a couple of them) are squirrellier.

...so (besides the USA yorkophone phenomenon (re: pieces which should be legitimately played on CONTRAbass tubas ALWAYS being played on sousaphone-sized instruments), should the (American? worldwide?) tendency to play BASS tuba parts on CONTRAbass tubas be referred to as "tuba-creep"...?? ...or should the use of "creep" (in any form) be strictly reserved for when referring to trumpet players?

[sdloveless]

The LOTR symphony has a "bass tuba" part. It's actually written for contrabass, but it says "bass" at the top. I was confused when I first got the music and leaned over to look at my fellow tubaists' parts, wondering if theirs said "contrabass".

[UncleBeer]

The "dreaded low C" only appears a couple of times, and in passing.

The dreaded low C works great on Eb tuba!

[bloke]

It works fine on my F tuba - and it's not one of the "monster" F tubas.

(I was making a wise crack about the "dreaded low C".) There are lots of notes on - just as another example - the bass trombone that aren't going to respond very well at all if someone tries to blow a bass trombone as if they blowing through a contrabass tuba, as a similar example of why people have trouble with that range when playing "normal" (non-monster) F tubas... One simply needs to play the instrument as it needs to be played, rather than how they think they need to play the instrument.

I believe a bunch of E-flat tubas were played in European orchestras in the late 1800s and early 1900s...

... but I suspect that - more often, or just as often - four valve F tubas were used.

When the part for Scheherazade is studied (and not particularly in much depth), it's obvious that it was written for three valve E-flat tuba.

I'm not an advocate for using historical instruments, but I sort of think that modern versions of the correct instruments should be used... LOL.. it makes trombone players heads explode when I tell them that I play in an orchestra whereby - when early 19th century symphonies are played - the first player plays the E-flat alto trombone first part on a modern larger bore version of an alto trombone, the second player plays the tenor part on a larger bore modern version of a B-flat tenor trombone, and I play the bass trombone part on a modern larger bore version of an F bass trombone...misnomer: "cimbasso". (I'm pretty sure that the reason it really freaks them out is because I costs a B-flat bass trombone player a gig. )

[MiBrassFS]

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[UncleBeer]

I think tuba selection has a lot to do with keeping up with the other brass section players and their now much larger and louder equipment than in the past when most of the orchestral literature was written with the least amount of effort.

First time I played Rite of Spring, the first player insisted that we both play contrabass tubas. While other brass players might be playing 'larger' instruments than colleagues from a different era, they're certainly not playing instruments that are an octave lower, and many times the internal volume of instruments from yesteryear. The Rite was written for two French tubas.

[arpthark]

I am convinced some (not all) composers didn't really know or care what a "bass tuba" vs. a contrabass tuba actually was or sounded like, with some exceptions. And I think later editors of music probably had a hand in muddying things up, too.

As an example, the Schott's score of Meistersinger is marked "Bass-Tuba," fwiw. The Schott's part is marked, simply, "Tuba."

There is some wind band repertoire from the turn of the century (contemporaneous with composers like Strauss) that specified "bass tuba" in their (single) tuba parts. Oddly, I have also seen very recent pieces for wind band that also have a single tuba part which is specified as "bass tuba." You'll see a lot of British composers who specify it for "basses," but of course we know what that means. I think Grainger in particular penned some of his parts for "bass tuba."

Back to Strauss, both tuba parts of Also Sprach are marked for bass tuba. The "II. Baßtuba" part spends much of the duration of the piece several ledger lines below the staff, occasionally in the midst of thick orchestration but also exposed, and generally in octaves with the "I. Baßtuba" part.

I think a lot of these (older) nomenclatures were editorial decisions and maybe not the composer's intent. I also think it's up to the performer to determine what specific type of large, weird conical brass instrument to use at any given time -- which can include, as Joe intimates, using a bass tuba in lieu of a contrabass when appropriate, even if it goes against "the flow." Out of any instrument in the orchestra, is there any that is as variable as the tuba? All sorts of shapes, keys, and sizes, and no composer is going to be hyperfixated on that aspect, IMO. I think allowing that a composer may be fallible in their specific tuba nomenclature is okay and making that decision is part of good performance practice.

===

It's been over 10 years since I quit the audition circuit and hung up my orchestral boots, but I remember asking my teacher about Heldenleben and the fact that it was marked for bass tuba. He sort of shrugged his shoulders and said "Yeah, but everybody pretty much plays it on contrabass tuba."

[catgrowlB]

This board is WAY too "orchestra tuba" centric regarding overall tuba discussion. I'm sometimes guilty of it.
That said......

If you look at old wind band parts they say "Basses" on them, not "bass tuba" or "contrabass tuba". "Basses" just meant tubas, usually BBb and Eb tubas in mind.

Also some old adverts from many decades ago had orchestra tuba players talking about their "York bass" or "Conn bass", usually referring to their CC contrabass tubas.

I think I'll start referring to my tubas as "Basses" ----- my Holton Eb bass, my Elkhart BBb bass, etc.

[The Brute Squad]

I think a lot of these (older) nomenclatures were editorial decisions and maybe not the composer's intent.

I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case, especially here.

From the brief look at it I took, I would definitely play Heldenleben on my DS, not my 181. I might switch for the muted section, but even that only gets to Db above, so I could easily swing it on C.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

The most exciting tuba playing I've ever heard on Zarathustra was an old sloppily performed and probably sloppily conducted recording of Mehta and LA. (The tuba playing was not sloppy.)

...but the tuba resonance was clear, because neither one of them were using yorkaphones.

They were probably using contrabass tubas, but I'd wager that those contrabass tubas were about the size of most F and E flat tubas today.

There's a ridiculously long sustained drone in octaves for the tubas in Zarathustra. There's a whole lot of crazy noise going on simultaneously, and the octave drone is parenthetical. It's just fine to play the really low one on an E flat or F tuba. It might even be more easy to hear (through all the racket) with a clearer sounding tuba vs if played on a yorkaphone.

bass tuba hesitance:
I'm guilty of it myself, but every time I go ahead and tell myself "damn it I'm playing this piece on F" I don't regret it.
The last time I played Mahler 1, I played the whole Symphony on F tuba. It was fine. Trombone players like F tubas - as long as they are played in tune, because they're easier for them to hear the pitch and to tune to it. I'd wager that there's more than one orchestra where there's some tuba player blasting their guts out with their yorkaphone bell pointing out into the hall and - most of the time - the principal trombone really can't hear much of it. I tend to suspect that the reason that Mr Jacobs most of the time used "ping" attacks is so that his first-ever yorkaphone could be heard more easily. ... I realize I'm branching off away from composer instrument instructions to player strategies, but whatever on that...and yorkaphones are fine for a lot of things... though I believe that B-flat versions of them offer more resonance.

The larger around an instrument and the larger the capillary bore and the larger the mouthpiece, the less "tone" there tends to be. unless the operator really gets to cranking...

"dreaded low C"... not my problem, not my topic

griping about too many orchestral topic posts:
Post some band stuff.
Post at least 1/6th as much as I do about your band stuff.
Most people here play in bands, and you'll get a lot of responses.
This isn't a TV show.
Proactively presenting topics will result in those topics being discussed.

[arpthark]

Yep, this:



vs. this:

[MiBrassFS]

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[tubanh84]

The most exciting tuba playing I've ever heard on Zarathustra was an old sloppily performed and probably sloppily conducted recording of Mehta and LA. (The tuba playing was not sloppy.)

...but the tuba resonance was clear, because neither one of them were using yorkaphones.

They were probably using contrabass tubas, but I'd wager that those contrabass tubas were about the size of most F and E flat tubas today.

There's a ridiculously long sustained drone in octaves for the tubas in Zarathustra. There's a whole lot of crazy noise going on simultaneously, and the octave drone is parenthetical. It's just fine to play the really low one on an E flat or F tuba. It might even be more easy to hear (through all the racket) with a clearer sounding tuba vs if played on a yorkaphone.

I would absolutely use my Miraphone 184 on Heldenleben. I'd never use my MW 182. I agree with @arpthark above that the nomenclature was probably not always used by people who knew what they were talking about. But even taking it at face value, the 182 would be so inappropriate for the part, that I would never use it. Great for Berlioz. Wrong for Strauss.

Not that I do much orchestral playing anymore, but if I did, I would end up using the 184 for a lot - Meistersinger, Nabucco, Rienzi, the Planets, most Strauss tone poems, Bruckner 4 and 5 at least. (Maybe Bruckner 7, but it's so satisfying on my Gnagey that I'd probably use that instead.) I think Short Ride in a Fast Machine would be amazing on it. It's a tiny horn, but if you relax and have a clear idea of what you want in your head, you can get a big ENOUGH sound out of it. And it is so small that it doesn't sound as harsh as a 6/4 if you light it up a bit, and it works with the trombones.

Point is, if you accept that the string basses produce a great deal of bass sound, you can find pieces where the tuba can simply work as a low trombone or horn and not feel like you need a 6/4 all the time.

Having said all that. I do miss my Rudy 5/4 some days. Gliere's 3rd on that horn was an experience.

[russiantuba]

The terminology "Bass Tuba" vs "Kontrabass Tuba" has been debated many of times because this nomenclature was often added (or clarified) by the publisher. Some editions say "tuba", while others specify "bass tuba".

Planets is an interesting one, for example, that indicates bass tuba. However, the British F tuba was used predominately during that time period of composition, Holst was a trombonist, and I am not sure what he put in the score. Some believe, like in some Wagner and Bruckner parts, the term bass tuba was used by publishers to differentiate the wagner tuben or tenor tuba with the larger "bass tuba".

Bruckner 7--The Musikissenschaftlicher Verlag version I have states "kontra-BaB tuba" while another edition has the first and third movements labeled as bass tuba and the 2nd and 4th as kontra-BaB tuba.

The best way to discover is go to the autograph score (many available on IMSLP) and see what the composer wrote. A lot of the time, it just says tuba.

[bloke]

There is context to be considered, but Holst's "The Planets" lies pretty nicely on an (yeah; English) E-flat bass tuba - as the Blaikley compensating system had been around for well over half a century. The low D sharp in Uranus is quite accessible as well as easily controllable, yes?

... and the licks in Jupiter sort of seem written for that instrument do they not?

Also important to realize is that most regularly played orchestral literature was written before the Chicago Symphony London records "FFRR" (larger than life) recordings came out, and dynamic expectations were more realistic, as well as being pre-rock and roll and pre 200 watt amplifiers...

...BUT ( and I'm tired of linking a recording of me playing the Organ Symphony) bass tubas often can seem louder than contrabass tubas would seem to be... and - in music - seeming is the same as being, is it not?

[Mary Ann]

The "dreaded low C" only appears a couple of times, and in passing.

The dreaded low C works great on Eb tuba!

That's what I was going to say -- there ain't no dreaded low Cs on NStars, nor dreaded anythings, really. And they hop around above the staff just fine, too.

[gocsick]

The "dreaded low C" only appears a couple of times, and in passing.

The dreaded low C works great on Eb tuba!

That's what I was going to say -- there ain't no dreaded low Cs on NStars, nor dreaded anythings, really. And they hop around above the staff just fine, too.

Unfortunately... C and Db are so saggy on the old Holton... that I usually have to play then as 4+1+2+3 and 4+2+3... keeping sound even between Bb and Eb is tough...

But it is an over 100 year old American Eb... its funny intonation of just part of the charm.

[bloke]

E-flat tuba isn't a workaround for F tuba.

The reason for F tuba is "because F tuba".

The reason for E-flat tuba is "because E-flat tuba".

The luxury of only playing for money and not teaching for money is not having to be concerned whether anyone in particular can figure out how to play x, y, or z, whereas all I have to do is to show up and play.

repair work:
When I can play any brass instrument in particular with a not very good mouthpiece, if the person who usually plays it still has trouble playing it with their very good mouthpiece, I've gone as far as I can go for them.

[JC2]

I'd say play whatever you think works for your orchestra.

Orchestras play very different from one to the next. I can imagine if the brass play quite conservatively, maybe your orchestra doesn't have a large string section then perhaps a bass tuba might be doable for Heldenleben. I would imagine in the UK they'd play Eb in at least a few orchestras.

The one time I've played it I absolutely needed to play it on a contrabass tuba. The brass blew the absolute sh*t out of it, not to mention the percussion and winds getting very healthy. Even with my 6/4 CC I played a lot of the louder sections as massive and broad as possible. I'm certainly not the loudest tuba player in the world but I can still make some healthy sound when I need and on that particular occasion I was playing next to maximum.

If I had tried to play it on an F tuba (standard rotor F tuba), the lower tessitura parts would have been buried and never heard in the hall. I would have had to push the thing so hard I'd have been in Cimbasso imitation territory just to be heard. I don't think anyone would want to hear that. Which sort of highlights the purpose of a 6/4 York style CC (or large German BBb if you prefer). It allows you to play broad and massive and keep up with a healthy brass section without going into trombone mode.

Roger Bobo sounded fantastic playing smaller equipment in the LAPhil, but you'd have to agree that it was very aggressive and edgy. I guess he enjoyed playing that way. Clearest tuba playing I've ever heard. It seems not many people try to imitate that style of playing currently.

I think a lot of folks would be quite surprised just how loud the brass section in a pro orchestra play. Hence 6/4 CC and you better be prepared to blow the sh*t out of it too.

I think a better example of using a contrabass tuba when you shouldn't is the Firebird suite which I see commonly played on contrabass.

All of Rite of Spring or Symphonie Fantastique on contrabass seems completely pointless. I don't think anyone does that anymore, I could be wrong?