The earliest history of the fiberglass Sousaphone

[Dave Detwiler]

Hi all - on my day off yesterday, I explored the earliest history of the fiberglass Sousaphone and here's what I learned:

https://tubapastor.blogspot.com/2023/03 ... -1961.html

If you have any historical details to add to the story, share those in this thread - thanks!

1962-03-25 The Times-News, Twin Falls, Idaho.jpg (143.88 KiB) Viewed 4483 times

[bloke]

That's a great article, and thanks for sharing it. The only thing that I get tired of is people over-stating the average weight of a sousaphone.

We already had at least one 36k when I walked into the band room in 1968. I wonder when they got it. Perhaps that year.

[bort2.0]

"Base horn"

[bloke]

"Base horn"

Come on Brett,
That's not as bad as "beartone".

[bloke]

“Only one in the state…

…Idaho”

In 1962, the entire state of Idaho, a rather large chunk of land, had just under 700,000 people.

I’m thinking that towns even having a full band program back then was somewhat rare. That contra-alto clarinet is still pretty rare.

Another fun find and great article, @Dave Detwiler!

[bloke]

In 1969, somehow our band director came up with two used Holton fiberglass sousaphones to put with the two or three Conn fiberglass sousaphones that we had. Our brass sousaphones had suddenly/mysteriously disappeared, and all that we had left in brass was one very heavy King , as Kings were built so thick in the 1950s. Those Holton fiberglass sousaphones probably came from the Board of Education warehouse, because we didn't have any band parent money to buy stuff I like that. Those Holton fiberglass sousaphones looked pretty darn old. I couldn't have imagined those Holton sousaphones being less than a decade old. I also remember being disappointed in them, because the open D and D flat were so flat on them. They had to have been awfully flat, for me to notice - being barely past being a beginner, although I had already spent quite a few years - by that time - tuning guitars.
Just for what it's worth, the only tuba that the school owned was an old King 1240 with an upright bell and completely worn out valves. It still sounded pretty good, even though it leaked horribly. I started using that tuba when I was in the 12th grade to play in the city's youth orchestra. (There were girls who played in that orchestra who went to schools from better neighborhoods, and they weren't so interested in getting married immediately out of high school, so I thought that might be a pretty good thing to become involved with - even though I wasn't particularly interested in playing the tuba.) I took valves out of the King sousaphone (which we still had that many years later), but they didn't do much better because the casings were also worn. I believe there was someone at the Board of Education repair shop who would wrap tight rags around metal rods, load those rags up with buffing compound, stick them on a drill, and polish the holy crap out of valve casings via that horrible method - thus ruining quite a few sets of valve casings for quite a few schools' instruments.

[tofu]

.

[bloke]

love the c. 1990's (??) KING pebble finish with the aluminum body ferrules and only two acorn nuts to remove the valveset.

They are THE lightest, and THE best in tune (and require THE least amount of energy to play them WAY too loud ).

(I'm a convert - from being a Conn sousaphone guy...OTHER THAN a couple of remarkable 4-valve Conn not-fiberglass 28K E-flats that I've played - and adjusted their circuit lengths for optimum intonation.)

[Jperry1466]

In 1965, as a freshman in high school, I played on one of two brand new Olds fiberglass Sousaphones. I was pretty small and remember being knocked down by a big wind gust, when the band director showed much more concern for the welfare of the instrument than for me. Later that same school year, he bought our first upright tuba, a 3-valve compensating Besson. I don't remember the model, but it had a small shank mouthpiece and the infamous ball on the bottom bow, which could do some damage if one wasn't careful.

In 1973, when I marched as a grad student at Kentucky, we had either Conn or King fiberglass sousas, which Rex Conner dubbed "Dixie Cup Sousaphones", and they did sound remarkably similar to blowing in a paper Dixie cup. I remember them as being Kings; David Gilbreath remembers them as Conn. He's probably right, since I was only in that marching band one year.

[Rick Denney]

My high school was built in 1962, and was part of the third generation of suburban schools built in Houston. It possessed three tubas when I started attending in 1972: an old Conn 36K in gold fiberglass, a much newer King 2380 in white fiberglass, and a terribly battered Besson Stratford, which was a dumpster-dive gift for me upon graduation. The Besson was not compensated, but it did have the unmanning device on the bottom bow.

I'm sure there had to have been other sousaphones similar to the Conn, because the band had more than two tuba players in the marching band in the years before I attended. But I never saw them.

My junior high school, of about the same age as the high school, had a similar complement of sousas.

I had the sense at the time that the Kings were newer than the Conns, but they could not have been that much newer--the high school was only a decade old when I first attended.

Rick "who painted the Conn white so it would match the King" Denney

[tokuno]

Having read Boys in the Boat a while back (true story of the University of Washington crew team's journey to gold at the '36 Berlin Olympics) I was pleasantly surprised to see a 2023 BluRay version at the library, and watched it this week over a few treadmill sessions - my movie time

I really enjoyed the movie, but there's a dramatic scene where the coach addresses the team and boosters prior to their participation in the 1936 Poughkeepsie Regatta. The UDub band stands at the back of the hall with a white fiberglass sousaphone bell towering above them. Ugh. The camera lingers on that angle long enough for a double-take confirmation that it wasn't merely a lighting illusion, and then returns to the shot for a good, long rub in the face. I had to re-wind to catch the dialogue, because the anachronism ejected me out of my immersive practice of intentionally suspending my disbelief

Still liked the movie, though. Especially the heartwarming (but spurious) scene of Cal's Coach Ebright bailing out the Huskies with a $300 gift to get them to Berlin (my wife & I attended & met at Cal - Go Bears - during the Don James era, when they owned Cal Football )

[MiBrassFS]

.

[Three Valves]

Conn, baby!

[bloke]

Conn, baby!

You surely remember that I (was) a 36K fan...
...because (just like growing up eating particular foods, etc., etc...) that's what I played in school (though I played a 22K in kolij...but it's more work to get the same results with really large-bodied sousaphones.

I FINALLY @Three Valves decided that (VINTAGE) King fiberglass sousaphones are the best.

- (Though 3-valve tuning is always going to be wretched) King intonation is better than Conn.
- The smaller King body and bore allow for more "punch" and "definition" (particularly outdoors).
- The King 26-inch bell (larger than Conn 36K 24-inch)...meh...likely makes no difference.
- The WEIGHT of the VINTAGE King sousaphones... (the absolute lightest...perhaps 17-1/2 lbs.)
- The King BRACING is considerably more stout (far less likelihood of repairs needed - if there's a minor accident).
- The PLASTIC (not fiberglass) from which the bell flares are made...Shop experience tells me that the slightly different chemical formulation of the KING plastic bell flares defines them as being a bit more flexible, and far less prone to cracking (including when they become quite old...but notice that I used the word "PRONE" and not "PROOF").

so...
(yeah...I was a huge Conn fan, BECAUSE I GREW UP WITH THEM - just as I LOVE chocolate mint ice cream - because my mother made HOMEMADE 3-layer chocolate birthday cakes with mint frosting and butter icing...She was a commercial artist, and those cakes were BOTH exquisite AND delicious!!!)
...my feelings were finally overruled by my thoughts...and I now own a (vintage, and super-lightweight) King fiberglass.

[catgrowlB]

^ I think I remember some ppl posting that the Olds or Reynolds fiberglass sousas were quite light; maybe 16.5 pounds or thereabouts
I'm just saying all the old fiberglass sousas seem light.
My Selmer Signet is right @ 17.5 pounds -- the same as your King fiberglass. Yet, the Signet is similar to the Conn 36k fiberglass........but better, imo. Better because the neck/bits use wingnut-screws instead of tension fit like most. Also thicker/beefier bracing and valveset brass than the 36k. So that makes me think the 36k *might* be slightly lighter than my Signet, unless the fiberglass itself is thicker

Weren't the very first fiberglass sousas fabricated around 1960 ish? They have now been around for quite a while...

[bloke]

A likely explanation for King being smaller yet no lighter weight than the Signet (36K knock off) is the stouter build of the King valve section. I'm thinking the female bell collar is also stouter.

I will readily admit that my least favorite feature of King sousaphones is their tuning bits. If they're dropped a few times they leak because the fitting part is larger diameter even on the smaller bit thus not nearly as easy to jam in (compared to smaller bits) to subvert a leak when slightly ovaled...

... But again, the King playing characteristics...
There's just nothing as good as King.
... and it took a little getting used to, but not much.
...I could easily change out the receiver on the end of the neck to accept either the Bundy bits that you have or the Holton bits - as both are still available new... but I have bigger fish to fry.

By the way, there are some Chinese knockoffs of King bits that can be found on the internet. For those of you who have King brass or fiberglass sousaphones, don't buy them. The larger bit that fits into the neck is just about exactly right, but the smaller bit which receives the mouthpiece is undersized and inserts into the second bit too far.. actually right on the elbow of the small bit, so it leaks. It's impossible to make it seal. People try to sell them for about 90 bucks. Sadly, new King bits have stored up to $125, and that's not marking them up very much from dealer cost. (The well-known parts jobber attempts to sell for a higher price than this to repair shops. .) For the reason of price alone, I might recommend converting a King neck to receive either the Bundy/Signet/Buescher/Selmer bits or the Holton bits, as both have a much lower dealer cost (from that same parts jobber) than King.

Pre-Katrina hurricane, every time I was in New Orleans I noticed that I really really high percentage of the brass band players played King sousaphones. After finally having one (I had a vintage super-thick brass 30 lb. one for a short time, but the University of Memphis decided to buy it from me), I completely understood why. After Katrina - when a bunch of foundations and such bought the musicians a bunch of new instruments - I've noticed a bunch of the thin sheet metal new Eastlake 20K's down there. All I can assume is that those foundations and such decided to buy them the most expensive ones they could find. I seriously doubt that the charitable foundations didn't do any research, unless they asked a bunch of their white band director friends what to buy, which would also explain all the 20K's.

... I haven't played a Signet/Bundy brass or fiberglass sousaphone in a long time, and never paid much attention to the intonation characteristics. (I've actually had both the brass ones and the fiberglass ones given to me... of course, I fixed them up and flipped them.) Since they are so similar to Conn 36K, is the second space C - played with the first valve - as stinky flat as it is with the Conn? (I honestly can't remember.)

[catgrowlB]

^ I remember you also rescued a bunch of King fiberglass sousas that were thrown out by some school system, and then fixed them up and flipped them to other schools. So I know you found discarded -- or were gifted -- many old beaten sousas and tubas over the years, but fixed them up well and flipped (sold) them to schools and individuals. I'm guessing you just decided to keep one of those King fiberglass sousas that you fixed up nice

Anyway, I'd say the Signet bracing and valveset are every bit as stout/beefy as King. The valveset bore and overall body of the King sousa may be a little smaller than the 36k or Signet, but the King bell/throat are larger.

Because the Signet has an either .726" or .728" valveset bore (similar to Yamaha) and the bits/neck are different than the Conn 36k, it probably plays a little different -- its been a long time since I've played a 36k, but I have a 14k original right here, and it plays slightly more 'open' than my Signet. Both are flat on 1st valve C (lippable), with subtle tuning/response/resonance differences between them.

As much as I really enjoy the old King and Conn sousas, I've never been crazy about their tension-fit bits. I like the weird wingnut-screw bit/neck system on the Signet/Bundy/Beuschers more. I believe iiipopes found that the Jupiter bits/neck fit Signet/Bundy sousas, though they are different after the upper neck.

For tension-fit bits, I prefer Yamaha. They seem to stay together better than Conn or King, but that also means they are more prone to get stuck...

[bloke]

yeah...
(Still believing that my 36K was "the $h!t" at that time) I sold ALL of those King fiberglass sousaphones (one, two, or three at a time).

It took me a LONG TIME to find one for less than $1200+shipping (and they ALL - of course - need repair, whether lightweight or later heavyweight...and I'm not interested in one of the heavy King fiberglass...not at all).

I FINALLY found one in some guy's eBay-sales garage (his two-car garage at his own house) less than 50 miles from my house (less than a year ago).
I drove over (same day) and handed him (low amount of dollars) cash money and took it home. It's a 70's vintage which is late ENOUGH to have the pebble finish the painted-over (rather than lacquered brass) branch ferrules, and the modern-style (porting) #1 piston with the wider-spaced center cross-port (ie. no #1 upper return slide, uses the newer "low-slung" style upper mouthpipe), and features the narrow (harder-to-grasp-and-pull) main tuning slide...but most of the extra-cool REALLY old ones (by now) feature worn pistons, and both their fiberglass and plastic bell flares are becoming brittle (age).

[iiipopes]

I am having a blast (pun intended) with my rebuilt "real" (mid-'60's) 36K for outdoor concerts. I wanted one for years, and finally last year the stars aligned, after trying most of the others: King, Reynolds, Olds, Bundy/Selmer, 22K. It's just so easy to play being relatively light weight, even with only 3-valves, it has good intonation since I have the upper loop of the 1st valve circuit converted to a moveable slide to push for 2nd space C and pull for 1+3 and 1+2+3. Lee Stofer did a great job for me.

[thattubaguy]

Fantastic article as always!!! The best part; reading your work makes my repair clientele think I know what I’m talking about