Lyon & Healy F tuba project

[arpthark]

As mentioned in another thread, I have an F tuba frankenhorn project that currently (as given to me) has three .650" bore valves and a fourth valve from a King sousaphone (.687"). It needs a bit of cleaning up but plays remarkably well across the board, aside from being about 20c flat!

I'd like to add a fifth valve myself eventually after getting some other issues addressed. Looking at valve addition locations, I'm thinking after the .687" fourth valve would make more sense than before the smaller-bore valve cluster, even though the two-piece mouthpipe might be easier to accommodate a fifth valve. I also think finding a rotor closer to .687" would be easier than finding one closer to .650", but I'm not sure. Adding a fifth valve after the fourth valve might also impact addressing the length of the instrument, which is currently just a hair too long with the main slide pushed all the way in.

My question: I know a lot of folks add fifth valves to .687" clusters. What's a cost-effective option for a rotor of similar size to accomplish this? I'm thinking maybe an old Miraphone 183 rotor... what other options are out there?

Thanks for any input!

[Tubajug]

That's a very cool horn you've got there! The non-traditional placement of the main slide is interesting, and would, in my opinion, make it tricky to add a 5th valve. You could possibly add one to the large side of the MTS, but that might be a vulnerable spot, damage-wise.

I'll watch with great interest!

[LargeTuba]

You could add it on the large side of the mts, but I think a 5th anywhere would be a Pita?

Does it play well enough to warrant the time and expense of adding another valve?

[arpthark]

You could add it on the large side of the mts, but I think a 5th anywhere would be a Pita?

Does it play well enough to warrant the time and expense of adding another valve?

Yes, it's quite the player. Lyon & Healy 14" bell and cut Eb body, surprisingly good intonation (aside from uniform flatness) and a very nice lower register. It's about 20c flat across the board, so that will likely be something I address when I am working out installing the 5th valve. I set my tuner to A=435 and I was very surprised that a cut-down Eb tuba was so in tune. If the MTS were just a bit shorter it would be almost perfect.

I agree that the large side of the MTS might work. The dogleg after the 4th valve tubing could maybe be re-kajiggered to make room for a valve. If all else fails, a dependent fifth valve in the 4th valve tubing might be something I explore, too.

[LargeTuba]

I think moving the mts to a more “normal” position could make it a lot easier. You could then have a 5th valve like a Yamaha 1291 or a Gronitz Pck.

Just an idea.

[the elephant]

As it is now, the large side of the MTS is the only viable option, but the valve would have to be aligned to the slide to fit, and the slide would have to align with the piston set. That is a real problem.

Your first issue is to discover *why* the piston set was installed so cattywampus. To me, based on this single photo, it looks like there is *just* enough space to rotate the piston set to where it ought to be. It would need a leadpipe, and they are around fifty bucks from Allied, annealed and pitch-filled for easy bending. They even have a smaller one for tubas like this.

Because brother, that tuba deserves a leadpipe, and if you do the work needed to align the machine to the bugle the leadpipe on the horn will become 100% useless.

AFTER these issues have been figured out and sorted, if the current MTS layout is retained, where we have been discussing remains the only logical location for a rotary valve. The location offers many nightmare damage scenarios, too.

I would look at rebuilding/correcting what you have *first* and then look to adding a 5th valve, which is very necessary for an F tuba. If you decide to do all this work, you can massage things with the idea of adding a 5th valve into how you redesign the MTS, trying to nestle it within the machine and not on the outside edge like what we are discussing. However, having a 5th right there is not a bad thing at all. It just adds a layer of complications and considerations for damage prevention and transport. I would look to having a hard case outfitted with padding that protects the 5th and would probably end up not using a gig bag for the horn. But that is me, and I have my own skewed vision of how things ought to be.

If you ever want to chat about this, PM me and you can send me some photos to ponder. Then we can discuss what your options are based on what tools you have, your budget for parts, and what the tuba's layout wants it to have. I love projects like this. I am sorry we are not nearer to one another, as it would be fun to look this little guy over and play it.

Please post a lot of well-lit, well-focused photos detailing your work. Do not shrink from posting about mistakes as they are always instructive to future readers. I will watch this with great interest. I like those Lyon & Healey Eb tubas, so a cut-to-F Frankentuba based on one will be very interesting to read about.

Good luck!

[arpthark]

I'm resurrecting this thread as I've been rethinking this project.

Upon further examination, the bore of the first three valves is .650", and the fourth valve is a .687" King sousaphone valve. The step between .650" and .687" is a sloppy fit that was just... epoxied together.

I want an F tuba again after selling my old Meinl-Weston 46 a few years back, so I think I am going to take @the elephant's advice: keep the bugle and potentially MTS and reconfigure the valves and leadpipe. A forum user has sold me a Miraphone 183 rotor and tubing that will work pretty well for a fifth valve, I am hoping.

Here is what I would like to do:

1. Find a King 4v cluster and cut the slides to F. Figure out how in the heck to paste it on. Reconfigure the tubing so it has a conventional MTS placement.

2. Get a new leadpipe that will go into the .687" valveset. Bend it as needed. Check the intonation and cut it up to pitch.

3. Plan the fifth valve after the main cluster or potentially after the MTS.

4. Get the bar stock, braces, linkages, etc. to create a fifth valve assembly and do my damnedest to stick it together using the Miraphone 183 rotor.

5. Get that satin silver bell gussied up and looking purdy.

I'm gonna set a tentative plan to have all this done by next summer. I'm hoping total cost here on out will not exceed a few hundred bucks. But I'm also dealing with a four-month old goo-goo-ga-gaing all over the place right now, so I don't have a ton of free time. We will see how it goes!

[Tubajug]

I'm gonna set a tentative plan to have all this done by next summer. I'm hoping total cost here on out will not exceed a few hundred bucks. But I'm also dealing with a four-month old goo-goo-ga-gaing all over the place right now, so I don't have a ton of free time. We will see how it goes!

Best of luck! I've got six kiddos, so my projects always take a while! My Eb build was about two and a half years from start to finish. I can't wait to see it!

[York-aholic]

I "think" I have an extra King 1240 leadpipe if you get to the point where that would help. They aren't the straightest/"shortest" leadpipe around so that may be undesirable for getting the pitch up. When you get close, let me know.

[the elephant]

Looks like you have some fun ahead of you. Good luck with the project… and the goo-goo-ing little one!

[arpthark]

Hi folks,

I've renamed this thread as my end goal is to no longer just add a fifth valve to this tuba, but to reconfigure it to have a better layout of the bugle tubing and a clean 4+1 setup using a 4-valve section (which I don't have yet) and an added fifth Miraphone rotor (which I do have). I am also going to replace the mouthpipe.

This tuba is a Lyon & Healy (stencilled 'The Regal Musical Instrument Company / New York"). It was originally a top-action Eb that had been converted to F by removing the long capillary tubing mouthpipe (pigtail) into the first valve. It plays pretty damn well as a somewhat hacked-together F tuba, and I am really excited to see what its potential is. It measures about 32" tall and has a 15" bell. It reminds me somewhat of a Yamaha 621 F tuba.



The old valves consisted of a cut Eb 3-valve section (old Conn?) and a grafted-on fourth valve from a King sousaphone. The bore difference between the .650" section and the .687" King had been managed by using epoxy, as shown:





Yikes. I was able to remove most of that gunk by prying it up with pliers and using my fingernails.

I began to strip down the tuba today to begin to remove the valveset and mouthpipe. I got as far as removing the receiver brace before I got called to other duties, but you can see what I am working with. The third valve tubing actually wasn't braced to anything, so I removed it along with the slides.





Rear pic. The engraving is actually on the rear as this is a flipped top action tuba, so I might consider turning it around so folks can see the engraving.



It's hard to tell, but I think this is all satin silver. I'm looking forward to seeing it gussied up a bit.

Next step is to remove the mouthpipe and valves.

[the elephant]

Looking forward to following along with you!

[LargeTuba]

If you had the $$$ to spend, maybe you could buy one of those Chinese 621 copies and steal its valves to put on your project.

[arpthark]

I was able to disassemble the instrument today.

I started with the two-piece mouthpipe. Here was the connecting ferrule -- notice the gaps.




It actually didn't join up too badly inside the ferrule, but I definitely want a one-piece mouthpipe for the future. With some persuading, I got it off. It looks like this tuba was reassembled in its current state using rosin-core solder, which has left a bit of a sticky mess on solder areas that I worked to clean up.

Next came the valves:



No big surprises here, but the fourth valve (King sousaphone) circuit was mostly made of soldered-in-place slide tubing with the slides still attached, so it was easy to remove. I am going to hang on to the fourth valve tubing as it's the same bore I would like the rest of the horn to be -- King .687". Here it is more disassembled:



I next attempted to remove the fourth piston from the 3-valve cluster that it was added to. My reasoning was that, if I am going to make this entire instrument the same .687" bore, it might be nice as a rank amateur to have a spare piston on hand if things go awry. Notice the nifty homemade braces that kept it attached:



Here is a pic where you can see the gap in bore between the 3 valve cluster and the sousa valve after I removed some epoxy:



I removed the tubing circuit and then tackled the joint connecting the 3-valve cluster to the sousa piston. This was tricker (and nastier) as I had to deal with that epoxy. It mostly burned off, and what didn't burn off I was able to peel/pick off using a set of these nifty little picks I got at Harbor Freight for $1 the other week:



Eventually, it yielded and I was left with one sort of gross-looking King sousaphone piston:





Notice the chunk missing out of one of the ports. Is that normal? That joint is where most of the epoxy was.

After removing that, I was left with a three-valve piston block in F. Anybody need a .650" bore three valve section in F?



At the end of this venture, I was left with a good deal of King braces and spare parts that I will hang on to:



I also managed to save most of the spots of solder that came out and landed on my workbench, especially after cleaning up some of the blobby solder spots on the main bugle.



I took this pic mid clean-up on the main bugle, but you can see what I am dealing with. I am going to turn that inner bow around so it's in a more conventional layout and continue to clean up the solder/rosin blobs.



Next up, I'd sort of like to clean the bugle now that it's really accessible after disassembly (and since I don't have a lead on a four-piston set or mouthpipe yet). Then, this project will be on hold until those parts are acquired, and then it will get way harder! Taking stuff apart is easy -- let's see how putting stuff together goes.

Thanks for reading!

[York-aholic]

Depending on your level of patience in finding a 4v cluster you might perhaps eventually use that King Sousa piston/casing to hang off the back of a King 3v set.

[arpthark]

Depending on your level of patience in finding a 4v cluster you might perhaps eventually use that King Sousa piston/casing to hang off the back of a King 3v set.

My thought as well! Those nifty little curved braces might come in handy again. But ideally I'll be holding out for a 4-valve something or other.

[the elephant]

Agreed. Search for a King three-piston set, which will be FAR EASIER to locate than a much more highly coveted four-piston set.

[arpthark]

Agreed. Search for a King three-piston set, which will be FAR EASIER to locate than a much more highly coveted four-piston set.

Yeah, probably less spendy, too.

I'll keep my ear to the ground and be on the lookout for either.

[arpthark]

Might be worth asking Tom at Mack Brass if one of his 621 copies got the bell thrashed in shipping but the valve section is in good shape and if he’s willing to part with it for a good deal.

[arpthark]

Three years later, I am resurrecting this thread, having developed some skills in the interim.

I got rid of the old .650”-ish bore 3v set but hung onto the spare fourth piston, which is actually Reynolds (close enough). I also have a Miraphone 183 valve for the fifth valve.

I found a King 3v set in decent shape and I started cutting it down to F. Three years ago, there’s no way I would have been comfortable doing this.

Still room for the 4th to be squeezed in there…