Where to Study the Tuba?

[JCTuba67]

I tend to agree with those who have suggested that this website may not be the most reliable source of information on this subject. To the original poster, I would encourage you to disregard much of the advice being offered here and instead speak directly with professionals and professors at schools near you in order to receive informed and credible guidance. At times, this forum feels more like a circus than a serious place for thoughtful discussion.

My own experience pursuing a music degree was very positive. I studied with Harvey Phillips at Indiana University, and before that I completed my undergraduate degree in physics at a small school in Ohio. Mike, in the Cincinnati Symphony, played a significant role in helping me find my path and pushed my playing to a level that ultimately made it possible for me to study with Harvey.

Unfortunately, this forum can also be unproductive, as some members contribute more noise than meaningful advice. It often seems that certain individuals are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than in offering genuinely helpful guidance. (Bloke, Russian)

This morning I read some of the thread about favorite band pieces, before I listened to the Dallas Winds play the Carmen Dragon America. If you return here and read this, I hope you have a better morning sometime in the interim

That’s good for you and it’s great you’re able to be productive with your time. My morning is fine as they usually are. It’s wonderful you spent quality time to inform me on that. Not necessary. Thanks a lot

[russiantuba]

Unfortunately, this forum can also be unproductive, as some members contribute more noise than meaningful advice. It often seems that certain individuals are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than in offering genuinely helpful guidance. (Bloke, Russian)

Not sure who you are, but I have made it my goal to help give advice on this thread. As an active freelancer and low brass professor in Ohio, and formerly from Texas, I added several other schools to consider as the one post that I assume you mention that I was drawing attention to (and now this one), had 2 programs with a transition of professors and it seemed like the poster just did a list of the top rated music schools in Texas, and including other programs with professors that I personally know care and offer advice and will respond.

It is of utmost importance to be honest with people wishing to pursue performance. This is not the late 80s-1994 in terms of the gig market and studying. Mike Thornton taught where I did my MM before he had health issues and I studied with one of his students who did the same for me as he did for you. Mike is also one of the most influential sound concepts.

In terms of academia, which, before I am called out, I am employed in, there is a push to get numbers for program viability throughout the country. Back when you were in school, most schools had limited performance majors and had stricter standards. Now, there are several “non flagship” programs with 6-8 performance majors or graduate students enrolled in the tuba/euphonium studios. There simply aren’t enough positions or opportunities for the number of performance majors.

Though there are some jobs in the military, there are 45 fulltime orchestral positions in the country. Since you mentioned Mike, 160 people showed up in 2016 for his job. Freelance performing and teaching opportunities are less than they were then, and much more competitive. University instruction has not kept up with current demands and trends in performance—I will say orchestrally, I play lots of pop standards and film music, and make a good bit of gig money doing popular music.

More importantly, several of my talented colleagues on other instruments have left the field due to the lack of work, many just a few years out of school. Some have transitioned to arts admin positions that are getting cut.

Before you make the claims you did further, I urge anyone to have these discussions and find people who will have the honest discussions and truths about the life and study of music performance and employment. I can be real honest with you, there are several professors (I’m saying on every instrument, not just tuba and euph), that will lie or misinform people on these standards to boost their studio numbers without care and concern for music making opportunities and employment after graduation.

[UncleBeer]

Unfortunately, this forum can also be unproductive, as some members contribute more noise than meaningful advice. It often seems that certain individuals are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than in offering genuinely helpful guidance. (Bloke, Russian)

imgonline-com-ua-CompressToSize-8xHeN3PdJV.jpg (91.65 KiB) Viewed 514 times

Be sure & ask Mark for your money back..

[bloke]

...some people in academia (particularly some of those who annually have to scramble for enough students to sustain their adjunct positions)

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN WHO HAS PLAYED TUBA FOR MONEY EVERY YEAR FOR THE PAST 52 YEARS, TAUGHT AT TWO MAJOR UNIVERSITIES, EXPERIENCED FINANCING HIGHFALUTIN MUSICAL EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCES OF TALENTED OFFSPRING, AND LIVED FIVE DECADES LONGER THAN YOU HAVE !!!!!

I thought - by moving over to "here" - we could afford bothering such folk who would remain back "there",
yet, they seem to have followed us "here"...(??)

Have ya'll noticed?
They all sound vaccinated.

...and now, there's a SECOND ONE of them...maybe THREE (???)

[Bassboner]

Having gone to music school, played military band, and then having a non-musical career, I would encourage you to look for a teacher and a program that teaches something in addition to classical tuba. Of all the gigs I've had as a pro and as an amateur, most of the money has come from non-classical gigs. Pick up some other musical skills, like arranging, repair, bass trombone, string bass, recording and PA setup, etc.

[bloke]

Having gone to music school, played military band, and then having a non-musical career, I would encourage you to look for a teacher and a program that teaches something in addition to classical tuba. Of all the gigs I've had as a pro and as an amateur, most of the money has come from non-classical gigs. Pick up some other musical skills, like arranging, repair, bass trombone, string bass, recording and PA setup, etc.

ALL of the above...plus something that you can become very good at doing that not many others are (even if it's unpleasant - like stuff that involves climbing into attics or under houses)...so people seek you out whether or not you're their "buddy".

Finally, if (after being warned off of it) you still do the "tuba performance" degree, don't pay much for it, because
- it's not worth much of anything, monetarily, and
- everyone measures everything in monetary value (whether or not everyone admits it).

- If you're offered a 100% free ride, ask yourself "why". (Are they too desperate? / What's going on, here?)
- If they're telling you $70,000 a year with a $5000/year scholarship (plus related expenses you'll have to cover), ask yourself if 140 tuba lessons and 120 orchestra experiences (rehearsals/concerts in your senior year, and probably - the other three years - possibly wait-your-turn concert band stuff) is worth over a THIRD OF A MILLION DOLLARS (tuition plus all related expenses) in spent cash or debt - plus four of the potentially most productive years of your life.

[russiantuba]

Something else I feel like I should mention that is related to the original topic and why I suggest not asking faculty to judge the level (take lessons with them, yes!).

————
Backstory. Ohio passed a law where programs at state schools that graduate 5 or less students a year on the undergraduate level will be cut. Two major cuts include the Music Composition Major at BGSU and the Music Therapy program at Ohio University. Both programs have had high success rates.

I had a student accepted into OU’s music therapy program and committed before this news. He is a killer bass trombonist for his age and was also looking at doing a dual major in music education to have that backing. OU is known regionally for its Music Therapy program, and though none of my schools have the degree and it’s quite specialized, they have had a lot of success in a field that doesn’t have many jobs, but is a field that I feel is needed for society.

————

Other states will probably follow similar measures. So what will this mean? Many of these programs will accept even more people and push the degree path on more, and then you’ll get a ton of dissatisfied students that just hate music because of the lack of employment. When people stop getting jobs and the program seems to be lowering in job placement rates and student satisfaction surveys, they, in return, are the next ones up for reevaluation.

Yes, these surveys exist. Yes, universities run these numbers like it was a Fortune 500 company.

Universities right now are fighting to survive and programs are doing what it takes to survive. ONU, for example, introduced a Sound Recording and Technology degree and a Pre Med with a focus on music and are working on a degree that is pending NASM approval (without saying too much, it allows students to pick and choose classes in music and other mediums to carve a unique career path, like if someone wanted to do do instrument design, they could carve a degree between music
and engineering). We deprecated other BA programs but to survive and not be on the chopping block without lowering standards.

————

I have spent a lot of time typing this stuff out not because I am bitter, not where I want to be in my career, etc., but because I deeply care. Most won’t be blunt and honest about the topic.

I have had performance majors, I have students going into performance. Even my most talented students I tell them to look at other interests and I do my best to be blunt and honest with them. They work hard and harder. I have other talented students that I suggest they don’t for what’s in their best longterm interests and success, and these conversations are some of the hardest I have.

[bloke]

One of the universities I worked for told me to recruit anyone/everyone I could.
That just didn't feel right...not at all.
That was only one of the problems I had with them. I started counting the major issues...ie. "That's four", etc.
A month prior to the end of the academic year (shortly after I had made that decision), I told them I wasn't coming back.
I should have recorded the vitriol - vitriol which told me that - unquestionably - I had made the correct decision.
(Based on that experience, I have since advised others to avoid telling an employer - at least, not a corporate/government employer - that one is quitting a job until after they've left the job on the last day that employee has personally decided they're working there.)
That said, I believe a salt-of-the-earth mom-and-pop employer deserves a heads-up.

[bloke]

https://www.ed.gov/about/news/press-rel ... g-outcomes

[gocsick]

On balance though music performance college graduates still earn more than the high school graduate with no college

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=4906036

https://faculty.providence.edu/en/publi ... an-income/

This is just political virtue signaling because in general all "worthless" college degrees still have favorable economic outcomes compared to someone with just as high school diploma and no further training. So the comparison from this rule wouldn't be Music Performance versus Licensed Electrician or Licensed Barber.. it means Music Performance degree holder versus the median "unskilled labor" category.


* Personally I think the category unskilled labor is BS.. every job has skills and training necessary to do it well and efficiently.

[sweaty]

I also disagree with the proposed rule. It is arbitrary and disregards individuals' goals, interests, choices, and life situations. I'm sure many construction workers outearned me in my early years teaching public school. Should my alma mater be punished for my career choice? Is "success" only measured by money?

What about college graduates who start their own businesses that operate at a loss for a while? Are their schools a failure? Are institutions now responsible for every individual's success? No more personal responsibility?

The Law of Unintended Consequences will apply if they pass this rule.

[Schlitzz]

I tend to agree with those who have suggested that this website may not be the most reliable source of information on this subject. To the original poster, I would encourage you to disregard much of the advice being offered here and instead speak directly with professionals and professors at schools near you in order to receive informed and credible guidance. At times, this forum feels more like a circus than a serious place for thoughtful discussion.

My own experience pursuing a music degree was very positive. I studied with Harvey Phillips at Indiana University, and before that I completed my undergraduate degree in physics at a small school in Ohio. Mike, in the Cincinnati Symphony, played a significant role in helping me find my path and pushed my playing to a level that ultimately made it possible for me to study with Harvey.

Unfortunately, this forum can also be unproductive, as some members contribute more noise than meaningful advice. It often seems that certain individuals are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than in offering genuinely helpful guidance. (Bloke, Russian)

Unfortunately, you’re not really bringing anything to the conversation. It’s like you’re here just to be disruptive. The only unproductive thing I’ve ever seen here is @dp ’s mullet haircut. What a cheesy two post wonder ……..

[russiantuba]

@sweaty by the way, I saw the news about your son today from his teacher. Congrats to him!

[Schlitzz]

I saw that too. Damn fine job! There’s some really good musicians, including the violas, in that orchestra. Go get ‘em.

[bort2.0]

@sweaty by the way, I saw the news about your son today from his teacher. Congrats to him!

Don't leave us hanging!

[bloke]

I - for one - really enjoy reading the "above the fray/elitist" type of comments. :
(Often, they feature words towards the beginnings of their input such as, "not always", "perhaps", "not necessarily", and the like. Sometimes - if waiting for a text or email that's really important, and sitting by the phone or the computer - it's slightly entertaining to poke just a little bit and get them to elevate their phraseology.)

I have no idea how many full-time, adjunct, and low brass (read: trombone player teaching legato tonguing to tuba players) "tuba professors" there are in the United States...500...?? fewer..?? more...??

It seems to me that - based on the amount of part-time and full-time work there is for tuba players in the United States - 70 or fewer would be a glut.

It's not too difficult - with the internet - to figure out who the most in-demand studio teachers are at these colleges and universities.

Where I as a 16 or 17 year old determined that I was going to spend years and money/debt on becoming a viable/employable tuba player (or male ballet dancer, vacuum tube analyst, thatch roof restorer, or some other high demand skill set), it seems to me that - were I not able to be admitted to one of the top five or so tuba studios in the United States (or sure,: Europe), the lack of admission to one of those elite studios would offer strong hints to me that either:
- I needed to consider other avenues of education and other skill sets,
- or I wasn't ready (at my level of local skill set acquisition) to apply/audition.

There are tons of brain surgeons.
If my brain were to need poking around in, I would go through the thousands of people with whom I'm acquainted, and find a way to hook up with one of the top twenty or so in the country. If I we're not able to manage to do that, my attitude towards the upcoming surgery would then be reflected by these two words: "oh well".