New classification of instrument that I learned about just today on Facebook

[bloke]

"entry level professional horn"

[BramJ]

You got to start somewhere...

[russiantuba]

"entry level professional horn"

Are these "educator approved", or "professor approved"?

[gocsick]

I've heard that in trumpet land before .. I think Trent Austin from Austin Custom Brass used it to describe Chinese factory built instruments or cheaper lives from more boutique makers line the Brasspire Unicorn. I've also heard "Step up" instructs with a better reputation like the Getzen Eternal 700 described that way.

There is s YouTube Sax player who does a lot of gig work like wedding bands... who plays on inexpensive Chinese student instruments. In a video he responds to viewers questions about why he uses a student sax and he responds that it's a professional instrument because he plays it professionally.

[bloke]

"diet ice cream"

Yep. If an instrument is played with the result being played regularly for remuneration - it's going to be a professional instrument..

I have a friend who's only ever written arrangements and played the saxophone for a living (his income has taken care of him, and he fairly recently moved out of Memphis into this county and bought himself a nice house out here). He left here and freelanced in New York for two or three decades, and came back when his mother needed care. I sold him one of JP's cheaper tenor saxophones (a magnificent instrument). He uses it maybe 40% to 50% of the time when he wants a little bit wider sound than his Selmer Mark VI tenor offers. ... I charge a little bit over $1,000 for those. Besides being really great instruments, they're all decked out with engraving and feature some fancy blue genuine mother of pearl finger discs on the keys. I think they're all so offered in various colors, but most people aren't into that stuff.

[graybach]

"entry level professional horn"

I misunderstood. I thought you had seen that in a job posting. Like for an adjunct professor or something. It’s not out of the realm of possibility.

[bloke]

When somebody says they play the recorder, I would probably ask them whether it's tape or digital.

[arpthark]

When somebody says they play the recorder, I would probably ask them whether it's tape or digital.

You use your fingers, so it has to be digital, right?

[windshieldbug]

When somebody says they play the recorder, I would probably ask them whether it's tape or digital.

You use your fingers, so it has to be digital, right?

Could be pedal. Just sayin'...

[Schlitzz]

They’re handing out entry level professional emotional support dolls in about 8-10 weeks, at Blue Lake. One could wonder if that’s a twoer, one for the playing, one for the food……

[Stryk]

"entry level professional horn"

A Chinese horn with a German name???

[tadawson]

When somebody says they play the recorder, I would probably ask them whether it's tape or digital.

Ironically, back in 6th grade music (in classroom, 1 hr a week or so), they presented us with "recorders" . . . My Dad had just gotten a pretty nice tape recorder, and I was amazed (albeit briefly, *very* briefly) to think we got to use one, only to be presented with this shitty plastic "whistle" with the prior kids teeth marks on it . . .

*Such* a dissapointment!

[Bob Kolada]

I assume it must be silver then.

[bloke]

I assume it must be silver then.

YET...only three valves

[Mary Ann]

it does remind me of the afore-mentioned "narrow wide rim" mouthpiece. Which I assume is for entry level professionals.

BTW, to muck up the works here, a friend of mine has recently starting playing on a tuba mouthpiece that has a horn rim on it. I kid you not. He is a pro, and i'm not being facetious. it is a new release of some kind. He said he likes it. Rim is narrow like a horn rim, not the diameter of a horn rim (had to put that to foil the foils.)

[Kevbach33]

BTW, to muck up the works here, a friend of mine has recently starting playing on a tuba mouthpiece that has a horn rim on it. I kid you not. He is a pro, and i'm not being facetious. it is a new release of some kind. He said he likes it. Rim is narrow like a horn rim, not the diameter of a horn rim (had to put that to foil the foils.)

And here I am, complaining about how thin the rim is on a Schilke 60 bass bone mouthpiece. (NOT an "entry level professional" piece, the 60 takes a lot of time and practice to work well above the staff as below. Never again!)
I don't think I could get on with a tuba mouthpiece rim that was thinner than the average tenor trombone rim, let alone as thin as a horn rim. (I know, don't knock until you try, but that's not happening soon after my 60 experience.) I can see how those who don't have a large gap between the top lip and base of the nose might need such a piece, however.

On topic, I think the Getzen Eterna trombones (large tenor and bass) would fit this "entry level professional" description, a step in the door to the "fully professional" custom series and, eventually, Edwards.

[bloke]

With threaded rims on most of my models of mouthpieces that I offer and choosing the most popular sellers of my rim profiles to put on my one piece silver plated brass mouthpieces that I've started selling, my biggest seller rim profiles aren't much wider - if any - than average width trombone rims.

As far as narrow rims such as French horn mouthpiece and Schilke bass trombone rims (whereby the 59 and 60 are made from a regular trombone mouthpiece blank resulting in a narrow rim) I have an easier time with those than with most others. (I'm a poor [French] horn player, but I can play the horn less poorly with a narrower and more rounded rim.)
The idea of a so-called "cushion" rim is an anti-concept, because we really should only be pushing against a rim just enough to seal off the air and no harder. Of course, our muscles become more tense/firm and hardened as we play higher, whereby it well might require a little bit more pressure to make an air seal because of the harder facial surface (notice that many of the super high notes squealy trumpet mouthpieces feature just about a completely circular roll into their very shallow cups, to avoid physical harm), but more pressure than is required to seal off the embouchure is too much, and - if the rim is widened to serve as a cushion - it's not going to work because metal (nor plastic nor porcelain) is no sort of "cushion". Finally - as far as the human face is concerned, various types of metals and plastics are all going to feel like the same amount of hardness, because they are all inflexible. Their surfaces might feel different, because some of them can't be polished as smoothly and others that can be polished as smoothly don't stay polished smoothly for very long because they are easy to scratch. What our skin detects in rims (beyond their shape) is smoothness and roughness, and not hardness.

Less contact surface and the avoidance of severe angular turns - which are detected by the face - results in potentially more flexibility.

bloke, you're wrong.

That's why they sell 24AW mouthpieces... for those who believe that I'm wrong.

I try to not argue with people who don't believe/don't understand these things... After all, they are potential customers...and (as far as "no politics" is concerned) just about the most political things to musicians are the models of instruments they play, the models of mouthpieces they use, and the things that they believe about performance techniques and pedagogy. (Just think back to the threads in involving people who believe that they create a sound on a brass instrument by knocking their lips against each other. )

[Bob Kolada]

BTW, to muck up the works here, a friend of mine has recently starting playing on a tuba mouthpiece that has a horn rim on it. I kid you not. He is a pro, and i'm not being facetious. it is a new release of some kind. He said he likes it. Rim is narrow like a horn rim, not the diameter of a horn rim (had to put that to foil the foils.)

And here I am, complaining about how thin the rim is on a Schilke 60 bass bone mouthpiece. (NOT an "entry level professional" piece, the 60 takes a lot of time and practice to work well above the staff as below. Never again!)
I don't think I could get on with a tuba mouthpiece rim that was thinner than the average tenor trombone rim, let alone as thin as a horn rim. (I know, don't knock until you try, but that's not happening soon after my 60 experience.) I can see how those who don't have a large gap between the top lip and base of the nose might need such a piece, however.

On topic, I think the Getzen Eterna trombones (large tenor and bass) would fit this "entry level professional" description, a step in the door to the "fully professional" custom series and, eventually, Edwards.

I played a 60 for a few years, if you want a large, low range focused mp there are better options. I have a few contrabass trombone mps from when I owned a contra, and the Josef Klier line has a ton of options that are made on a wider blank. The C cup contra mps are shallower than an S60 and have a much more comfortable rim. I have the 30mm version, the KBP 2C, and it's a fantastic brass quintet/trombone choir option. I bought this one from Dillon, I don't know if they still sell JK mps. There's also their regular trombone mp lineup, almost every size has several different cup depth options.
It's also a great 'mini tuba' euphonium mp but a little small for me on cimbasso. I bought a small, small shank Kelly tuba mp that seems to work pretty well there. Model TSXSSG, DO NOT LOOK THAT UP, you'll get some very unpleasant other results.

https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmtubasmall/index.asp

When I stopped being a tuba skewl major but still wanted to play in a few groups I'd play my 1062 with that 2C in brass choir and then go to jazz band, pull my main slide out about an inch and stick a Yamaha 60B in it. That's another great 'other' mp, nice fat rim, shallow cup, iirc Yamaha 60 equals approx Schilke 59 size. I think it was designed as a classical German style mp.

Anyway, the shallow contra stuff works great for low bass trombone applications. Lots of color, great sound, fades out over around high F but that's not what it's for.

[bloke]

60 is really a size too far (unless someone's just determined to practice so much that they can play on it anyway), but the problem isn't the rim.
59 is pretty nice.
58 is easy to play, but one compromises a small amount of the bass trombone type of sound.
Narrow rims offer the most flexibility, (again) as long as the person using a narrow rim is not digging in when they play high.
Narrow rims need to be pretty rounded, obviously.

I just don't like the Bach bass trombone mouthpieces at all.

I'd like to test a 59 with a smaller throat.
So many good ideas for mouth pieces are ruined with oversized throats, and players will blame a nearly wonderful mouthpiece on everything other than what's often wrong with it - which is the throat being too large.

[Kevbach33]

I suppose I should clarify that I was referring to the high school me that hadn't quite developed a solid embouchure for bass trombone yet.

Nowadays — and after time on a Wick 1AL and Schilke 58 to strengthen my bass bone embouchure — my current bass piece is basically a fancy 1¼G-sized (a smidge smaller inside than a 59) piece with a rim like a 58. I'd like to try a big piece with a rim that's not 60 thin or tenor width, as below:

Recently I trialed a Greg Black New York (same rim shape as the New York tenor trombone pieces) 1⅛G (28.75 mm/1.132" opening), medium weight, with the largest backbore offered (4) and stock (.316", pretty big) throat. Here, the wide rim (basically the bass bone version of the 24AW) of the new York design hindered my flexibility, the thing bass trombones need in big band (where I only play bass bone, so no thanks on the contrabass suggestions, despite how fun they sound). It did seem like an option for orchestral playing where note security is of importance. Too locked in for me was my verdict.

I'd like to try the normal 1⅛G rim size, either depth (standard or GS, slightly shallower), particularly with the smaller back end (.312" throat/#2 backbore). It could fit me well, based on the limited time with the above trial, and I think the stock rim is thicker than that of a 60.

Oh yeah, just an unreal sound that was so rich and thick (it's really hard to describe). I fully get the appeal of Black's pieces now.

However, I still maintain the 60 rim is too thin for me, though, not counting the other things wrong with the piece. That's where my "never again" comment went.

Funnily enough, the 58 and 59 are supposed to share the same throat size (.2969" or 19/64"). That's kinda middle of the road as far as bass throats go.

And agreed on Bach bass bone pieces, can't stand them.