B&S F tuba test drive at Baltimore Brass

[prodigal]

Hello all,

I very recently made my way to Baltimore Brass to acquire a BBb for my (extremely lucky with equipment, but stuck with a picky Dad) son.

While in Rome, you might as well try the pasta. Now that Baltimore Brass is a Buffet Crampon dealer, there were a good many shiny new tubas on display, with a much shorter drive for me than down to Jacksonville. I had to try the 56AFT and JBL. Caveat: Break it and you bought it. No problems there, I learned to flyfish with bamboo fly rods, really good ones, I’m easy on equipment.

Background: I studied tuba in undergrad and moved to F in 2000, because I wanted to, we were not required to play anything other than contrabass. My first love was a borrowed Symphonie, a tuba that played better than I could. To me the small bore Symphonie is still the top F tuba ever made, but I am definitely biased. I owned a PT-10 for awhile. Bigger was not better, it was blah all around. Then I had grad school, kids and a farm. Tubas got traded for a cello (I teach strings, well sometimes) and a tractor. The tuba bug bit me again, and as I'm a pretty cheap guy in terms of disposable pieces of society, I have had some cash to wheel and deal. I am nowhere near a professional, I just love playing, especially B&S F tubas.

This winter, I acquired a PT-15 off an ebay auction. Huge risk, huge reward, though. It is in VERY good condition and plays better than it should, IMHO. I believe in having good equipment in music and life, and great tools help make improvements in work that much easier.

Quick semi-skilled amateur review:
56AFT: Felt like a chunky PT-15. Looks very Germanic with 6 valves and a kicker on the 2nd slide, aka a whole lot of machinery on display. I played a little of the York and RVW, because I like them. The slots are much larger than on my PT-15, which are still larger than a Symphonie. I could feel the larger bore from the first articulation. Not a bad thing, just different. Low C sounded like my 186CC. No problems there. From high F up, to me, it felt more challenging in embouchure than my PT-15. But again, I play for craps and giggles, I’m not Alessandro Fossi!
This tuba just seemed really loud to me, it was easy to pop forte without even trying. As a solo horn over an orchestra, it would be hard to beat.

JBL: This one was a 6 valver. From the first note, it felt more familiar, as it is pretty much and “improved” PT-15 that shouldn’t be surprising, same bore. It actually slotted easier than my -15, maybe because of the leadpipe entrance to the 5th valve. Pretty easy to play, buttery sound, maybe not as loud as the 56AFT, but the low register was more like my -15. Great tuba.

Conclusion: These are GREAT tubas, no complaints, just differences from which instinctual adjustments would probably be easy after an hour or two of practice.

I still think the Symphonie is the cream of the crop, but I love my PT-15 (especially for what I paid for it). No problems with either of these new ones, at least until checkout time!

[prodigal]

arpthark, they both reminded me of your avatar. A whole lot of paddles! I guess the extra valve and slider add variables to the tuning and sound equation, but I hate algebra, so one fifth valve variable is enough for my simple brain.

[arpthark]

Might as well have an ophicleide at that point!

I'm glad you got to go to BBC. Some really fine people in that organization, and lots of cool horns.

I'm also on the B&S F tuba love train (played on a pre-PT-10 "Perantucci Modell," then owned a JBL in college and now have a 5v Symphonie).

[prodigal]

I kinow about the Symphonie, you beat me to her!

It all worked out really well for me, though! I really love my PT-15!

B&S tubas just seem to me to be the most efficient in terms of sound for the amount of air you have to put through them, the -15 is so much more efficient than my tiny Piglet. It doesn't make any sense.

[bloke]

I agree that all of those post Symphonie models are good tubas, but they are also all "a bridge too far".
The Mark VI Selmer Paris saxophones weren't perfect, but for some reason people are paying up to $20,000 and maybe $30,000 for them - depending on condition and serial number and such.
Everything made after those was sort of the same (whether made by them, whether by someone in Japan, whether by someone in Germany, or whether by someone in China). All of them are bigger, all of them aren't quite as good, and all of them are more work to play.

[prodigal]

They still make them, I honestly don't know why the small bore became undesirable. The Symphonie mid to high range is just special. The low range needed practice, but was okay. My PT-15s low range is easier, but not really better. It's buttery in sound, but no Symphonie "sparkle."

My PT-15 was in every way superior to my old PT-10. No comparison there, it was just blah, all over. No butter, no sparkle, just meh. Maybe the builders made it during Oktoberfest?

I guess bigger in bell size and bore is better in America? IDK.

(I'm never saying no to getting a Symphonie down the road. Probably not, but never say never.)

[bloke]

They still make them, I honestly don't know why the small bore became undesirable. The Symphonie mid to high range is just special. The low range needed practice, but was okay. My PT-15s low range is easier, but not really better. It's buttery in sound, but no Symphonie "sparkle."

My PT-15 was in every way superior to my old PT-10. No comparison there, it was just blah, all over. No butter, no sparkle, just meh. Maybe the builders made it during Oktoberfest?

I guess bigger in bell size and bore is better in America? IDK.

(I'm never saying no to getting a Symphonie down the road. Probably not, but never say never.)

The entire range of the instrument is easy and offers clarity and beauty.
The currently made versions of the Symphonie model measure out the same I suppose, but they are sort of like comparing late 1960s or early 1970s 186 to a currently made one.
With so many hydraulically formed bows on the new ones, they look the same but it's sort of like the same manufacturer making a copy of what it made in the past...though Buffet is not really the same manufacturer as was B&S., and the current factory doesn't resemble the original in the least. Yes they make more marketable products, but marketable and special are not synonyms.

[jtm]

Can't resist piling on: my F Symphonie is a joy to play. I could say that it's a much better tuba than I deserve, but it's a great help to know that any bad sounds are all my fault; I never waste time blaming the instrument. And it wasn't even expensive.

[prodigal]

I remember the first notes I played on the Symphonie, I couldn't believe a tuba was this easy to play and sound so good. It made practicing something that I looked forward to.

I know that there is work to be done with the 186, but unpacking the PT-15 still brings a smile to my face before it disappears into the mouthpiece!

[bort2.0]

I think most of the B&S rotary tubas are pretty agreeable.

I haven't yet played a Symphonie!

The other models are all pretty solid. Some have better into action than others, and none of those I've tried had a low C that is any worse than playing a low 4th valve note on some BBb or CC tubas.

The B&S piston F tubas that I've played were all from previous generations, not the new models. The era of, put the large piston valve set on the rotary tuba body, like the PT-10P and PT-15P. Or the Mel Culbertson piston F tuba. Not my favorites.

F tuba is a lot of fun. I still think that one of these days I'd like a large F tuba and use that for everything. Probably won't happen, but I still think it would be fun.

[bloke]

My old Symphonie model is playing the Jaws solo (for the next concert I've got to play) for me.
The newer larger bore ones are good instruments, but I suspect - with any of those - I would have to actually play the Jaws solo myself and hope the tuba would cooperate.

[prodigal]

I'd love to hear a recording of you playing this!

[bloke]

.

[prodigal]

I think most of the B&S rotary tubas are pretty agreeable.

I haven't yet played a Symphonie!

The other models are all pretty solid. Some have better into action than others, and none of those I've tried had a low C that is any worse than playing a low 4th valve note on some BBb or CC tubas.

The B&S piston F tubas that I've played were all from previous generations, not the new models. The era of, put the large piston valve set on the rotary tuba body, like the PT-10P and PT-15P. Or the Mel Culbertson piston F tuba. Not my favorites.

F tuba is a lot of fun. I still think that one of these days I'd like a large F tuba and use that for everything. Probably won't happen, but I still think it would be fun.

Don't try a Symphonie, they're narcotic!

A colleague of mine plays everything on his Petrushka, that is a huge F tuba. He does pretty well with it, but definitely a different kind of sound.

[bloke]

I don't think it's that those Miraphone piston F tubas are that big, but the bore on their valve sections is really big.

[prodigal]

I don't think it's that those Miraphone piston F tubas are that big, but the bore on their valve sections is really big.

Compared to my Cerveny 653 it definitely looked like David vs. Goliath. We want to try each other's tubas sometime soon, so it should be interesting.

[prodigal]

I'd love to hear a recording of you playing this!

Put one up a while ago when I didn't have to play it. Is it still up somewhere on this site?
I didn't play through the whole thing...
Give me another week or so running through all of these charts
(There's so much of this John Williams stuff that I don't know if I can make it through the show... Well I can but it's ridiculous) That last night when I went through it I didn't even go through the Jaws thing cuz it required unpacking the other tuba.
... but I'll try to remember to get Mrs. bloke to do a phone recording.

Okay...
I found where I uploaded it before, but I just stuck it on imgur... And it looks like they've deleted it... I'm just seeing a black screen.
No one else is seeing anything more than a black screen, are they?

https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=7563#p76127

edit:

Wow, I can see the fishy's teeth at the end! I might have to cancel our beach vacation after hearing this....
Okay... I found a better link and it's still there.
I was trying out my new really small mouthpiece that I've been marketing to cimbasso players/owners.

It's only a small section of it (from a John Williams medley that orchestras play at pop's concerts), nowhere close to the whole segment:

It still looks like it's a blank when I post it here.
TRY clicking on this and opening it in a separate browser tab or window:
https://imgur.com/LZZcsRy

I can do better .
I'll post after going through it a few more times on a couple more nights and with a regular F tuba mouthpiece. It also sounded like my time sucked pretty bad.

[prodigal]

I don't know bloke, I'm kinda scared to go into the water now, that fishy has some really sharp teeth! Gonna need a bigger boat!

The backstory on Quint is brilliant, if I survived the sinking of the Indianapolis, I'd hate sharks too!

Some of the worst incidents of shark attacks took place during the naval actions around Guadalcanal and the Solomons. The islanders there buried their dead at sea, so the sharks already had a taste for man, so the bloodbaths during that part of the war in The Slot must have been a buffet (no B&S pun intended) to them.

[Rick Denney]

@prodigal, I haven't seen a 3100 with the old Symphonie graduated bore on the B&S website for a while now. It used to be designated the PT-9, but they have gotten rid of all the PT designations at this point. I didn't seen any with a bore reported at less than 19mm.

Mine is from the last run of Symphonies right around unification, probably assembled from leftover parts, before they built the new factory that opened in 1994. The previous owner bought it in 1991, I recall. When I got it, I sold my 5-valve Symphonie from the 70's, probably from the second production run. It had a slightly more subtle quality to the sound, but it also had a few intonation challenges that the 6-valve model does not have, particularly that the 5th valve branch was too short for the tuning I was used to. Yes, I could have replaced that 5th-valve branch, and certainly the older one was in some ways more beautiful, but the 6-valve model already did what I needed it to do.

The modern B&S F tubas are still my favorites of those available new, based on trials I've conducted in Elephant Rooms. But I like mine. If I need a smaller F tuba, my 621 does the job.

Rick "perfection is unattainable" Denney

[C J]

@prodigal, I haven't seen a 3100 with the old Symphonie graduated bore on the B&S website for a while now. It used to be designated the PT-9, but they have gotten rid of all the PT designations at this point. I didn't seen any with a bore reported at less than 19mm.

The 3100 with the graduated is still on the German website:

https://de.b-and-s.com/bs_DE_de/f-tuba- ... 2-0gb.html

And here is something to think about for Bort2.0
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ ... 02-74-8700

or
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ ... 2-74-23770