PT-1 vs. 186 (large bell) BBb

[prodigal]

Hello friends,

I need some enlightenment from the BBb community about a possible purchase for my kid down the road (and well, for me far sooner than that, if I want to give my 186CC a break )

Does anyone have a good comparison of the PT-1 vs the (IMHO) standard 4/4 BBb tuba, the 186? (I'm a CC kind of guy)

The player will probably be in the 5'6" range and have a lung capacity of around 6L. He's more sized like Mom than Dad at this point. (3rd grade)

As most of you know, I'm very familiar with B&S F tubas, but I'm ignorant of their contrabasses except perhaps a couple of tests of the excellent PT-6 rotary.

My main idea is which is easier to play and less air required. (I like an efficient/lazy contrabass.)

Thanks!

[catgrowlB]

It's been a while since I played both models, but I prefer the B&S PT-1. The PT-1 is slightly larger than a Mira 186 BBb, but both are close enough. I usually group the old PT-1 in with the MW-25 and Mira 187 as 4/4+ rotary BBb tubas. The PT-1 will generally have a wider, more buttery sound than the Mira 186. But the 186 will be more consistent with better overall intonation.

One of the best BBb tubas I've played was an old B&S PT-1 with the blue oval B&S logo in the main tuning slide brace. That particular tuba played with a very buttery sound, buttery (easy) response and good intonation up and down the range. If I had that tuba, I'd call it 'Butters'

[bort2.0]

For me, I'd choose:
PT-1 for band
186 for orchestra

My son is 10, and has been playing for about a year or so. He's been using my Martin Eb, and it's a great size tuba for a beginner. Big enough that it can sound good, small enough that it's good for a beginner. He also does fine on a Yamaha 103, but likes the Martin more. So do I.

[prodigal]

I have a little Jupiter 3/4 for him now, he's making good progress on baritone. Just thinking for down the road...

Did the PT-1 slot as easily as a 186?

I think that B&S F tubas pretty much play themselves, are the contrabasses as easy?

[bort2.0]

I have a little Jupiter 3/4 for him now, he's making good progress on baritone. Just thinking for down the road...

Did the PT-1 slot as easily as a 186?

I think that B&S F tubas pretty much play themselves, are the contrabasses as easy?

I'm a big fan of the B&S stuff. I've owned several, they were all easy to play and sound good.

The B&S tubas tend -- to my ear -- to have a meatier sound to them. The Miraphone 186 has a more focused sound that still has a good amount of presence, but can really cut through if you want it to. I made the band/orchestra distinction, because I think that kind of focused sound can be a positive thing in orchestra ("clarity" and "projection"), versus in a band where there's a lot more room for "blat". For decent players, they'd do fine with either, in any situation. For me, I'd want a B&S for band a little more than I'd want a Miraphone 186.

Overall, I think it's kind of like choosing a Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry. Both are solid, kind of unexciting, but won't let you down. And with a minimum of maintenance, it'll last longer than you need it to.

[bort2.0]

PS -- Germans use B&S tubas and Americans use Miraphone tubas.*





*In the same kind of unfounded overgeneralization logic as "cats are girls, dogs are boys".

[Kevbach33]

As someone who owns a 2103 (450 mm bell version of the PT-1/3103, which has a 480 mm bell) and sits next to another with a BBb 186, I agree with the points @bort2.0 brought up. My section mate's sound is pretty lean with some bite (he uses a Giddings Baer, fwiw), while I (on a Laskey 30G) get a bigger, broader sound out of my instrument, and thus end up sounding a little closer to a string bass.

A 186 is fine for band, but the next half size up (103, GR51, MW 25, Miraphone 187, etc) can help give some extra horsepower without becoming too brash.

[prodigal]

Thank you everyone!

I'm a rather brash kind of guy/player, maybe that's why I like 186s?

This sounds like a good horn, I think I'll try her out.

(If I ever get to play in orchestra (for the big stuff), I'll have to find a reason to square away some space for a PT-6R.)

[bloke]

The old 39-in tall 16 inch bell horizontal slide B&S tubas sound a little better than the186 B-flat tubas, but the trade-off is that the B&S fifth partial (open d and the adjacent d flat) is flat enough so as many would consider it to be of no use, and forcing the use of alternate fingerings. To clarify, those pitches also usually sag with a 186, but more often they're within reach of good tuning.

I also prefer the low range of that particular B&S model (as well as the extreme upper range, for that matter) to that offered by a B-flat 186.

I would describe the sonority of that particular B&S tuba as being a lot like the sonority offered by a typical German kaiser orchestra tuba, but obviously scaled down to so-called 4/4 size.

It's hard to find one of those old tubas that's not fairly beat up, these days, and the configuration of the #1 rotor upper knuckle defines it as challenging to enhance those old those B&S tubas with a fifth valve, if desired.

Rotor speed (with everything optimized on both models) is usually faster with the 186.

[bort2.0]

I just remembered an old tuba colleague, Steve Harsch, who I played with for several years in Baltimore. Sadly, he passed probably close to 15 or 16 years ago now. Really nice guy, and an excellent tuba player. IIRC, @Rick Denney knew him well (from Texas?), and Steve had relocated to Maryland sometime in the 2005-2010 range.

Anyway, Steve had this old and very well used Miraphone 186. It sounded great, none of the blatt and all of the good tuba sounds you'd want to hear. Always in tune. Clean articulations. Very clear playing during fast articulations. That tuba and him were a really good match

A little while after I met him, he bought (I believe!) a PT-1, and, no surprise, sounded even better on it. Same basic Steve sound, but more of it. I don't remember specifically what he said about it, but I seem to remember him liking it an awful lot, and that it took less effort to make a bigger sound.

Steve was a really good guy. And as a tuba player, I'm sure he would have sounded good on just about anything.

[bloke]

Over the years, I've toyed with the prospect of owning a Schneider BB-flat (or whatever stencil name might appear on one of these).

Whenever I've picked up a 186 BB-flat (regardless of niceness of condition and bargain-ness of acquisition cost) it's never occurred to me to consider keeping it.

So as to not confuse, it's widely known here that I currently own a Miraphone tuba, and it's not one of the lower-priced models.

[Rick Denney]

I have avoided answering in this thread because my B&S is not a PT-1, but rather an old Giardinelli-branded 101 (41” tall). And it has been through the wars.

And my 186 is not one of the later large-bell versions, but a much earlier small-bell version from the hand-made era. And it’s got no little bit of battle-scarring, too. But it’s pretty similar to Steve Harsch’s old Mirafone, though it’s been about 40 years since I played it. (I borrowed his once for reasons now forgotten to use for an orchestra gig, for whatever that experience is worth. At the time, I liked it better than the Cerveny/Sanders I owned then.)

Joe is right that the 5th partial on the old 101 is unusable with the usual fingerings. I had similar issues with a Vespro (a 101/103 mashup from just after unification). I had bought that thinking it a potential upgrade from my so-so 11xxx 186 I had by that time acquired. But the intonation problem annoyed me too much and I sold it.

My current early 186 has a warmer, meatier sound than the Giardinelli, and much better intonation. The Giardinelli has more directional projection and a great “out-front” sound, but I find the 186 easier to play with lots of dynamic control.

The 101 is taller, but it is not bigger.



Rick “both from about 1970 and probably not currently relevant” Denney

[bloke]

@Rick Denney
I view your post as relevant, because I got the height of the instrument wrong, and also I would imagine that most people shopping 186 B flats are going to be looking at those with 16 and a half inch bells, because the majority of the used ones are those and the majority of the affordable used ones are those.

bloke "You know me... If I had two instruments that similar in size and application, one of them would disappear. It's more the space than the money. For most Americans,, 'more indoor private space' is tantamount to more wealth."

Sell one to that high school student looking for a B-flat tuba that's good, and spend the money on some additional upgrade or repair for that vintage RV of yours.

[prodigal]

I may be able to give this review myself in a week or so..

(Possibly a bunch of new rotary F tubas also...)