CC and F tubas and high school players... an observation from a parent

[gocsick]

So now that my son has all his college results and is just deciding where to attend, I have been trying to organize my thoughts and observations on the process. One thing keep popping up a lot of students auditioning were on CC and a few even had Fs with them (yes they were auditioning for undergrad).

When he started high school I found a good playing and very nicely priced Miraphone 186 BBb for him (my daughter will be using it very soon... so a good investment for the family). Though high school I never once thought that he should switch to CC. He was selected as the tuba for the Columbus Symphony Youth Orchestra based on an audition on BBb, he won a young musician competition from the symphony and performed a solo recital before a symphony masterworks performance on BBb, various honor bands etc. He was selected for all state band and out of the 4 tubas he was the only one on BBb.. the other 3 were all on CC (one even made a snide comment about needing a CC to be taken seriously for University auditions.. my son took much joy in beating him for seating placement).

He auditioned at a variety of schools from "Famous Conservatory" to Home State Public University (OSU) and various schools in between. Even at OSU the student before him was on an Eastman CC (granted there were a lot of beat up school owned tubas in the warm up area as well). At Out of State Public University with a Famous Professor... he was sandwiched between CC players and the one before him also brough an F. At "Famous Conservatory" halfway through the audition the professor stopped him and said "I just realized you are playing a BBb why not a CC?" (to be fair he was told that most people audition on a CC at that school, he was honestly a little surprised to have gotten one of the 4 audition slots they had this year and not at all disappointed when he didn't get the one "accepted" letter...). At 2 schools he was the only tuba auditioning in the time we were there so we didn't get to see anyone else so maybe I am just hyper-aware of equipment, being a tuba nerd, and in reality I am falling into a confirmation bias trap.

At the same time Jim Akins at OSU (RIP) at the mock audition day told all the prospective tuba players they finding a tuba they sounded good on was much more important than the key, and if they liked BBb they should stay on BBb for their studies. Except "famous conservatory" the professors from the other programs also said there is no rush to switch and to audition on BBb then consider switching after he decides where to attend. SO there is a disconnect there...

Is this the way it is going???? I mean in reality how many families can afford a good BBb tuba much less financing a switch to CC during school??? Adding an F to the mix?? My wife actually asked me if we inadvertently held him back or if he was going to be non-competitive for the programs he applied to because of his tuba.

2 seconds of background as an aside.... My son only got serious about tuba about 2 years ago (he was playing piano fairly seriously and doing double bass as well). He decided he wanted tuba lessons and knuckled down practicing regularly etc. In reality the idea of being a music major only took hold about a year ago. James Green has been fantastic in preparing him both musically and in the reality of making a living at tuba... so he does have workable backup plans not just pie-in-the-sky dreams. That is just level setting... he isn't a kid that went to Interlochen or various fine arts camps.. he isn't in a performing arts high school or had music tutors (beyond piano lessons) from a young age. I am really proud of what he accomplished in a relatively short amount of time, but I am more proud of the hard work and dedication he has put in while also managing good grades, a part time job, and a girlfriend who takes too much of his time.

[prodigal]

I played BBb until the summer before my Freshie year at great, cheap, local, state University. We had to play CC, so I borrowed a 185CC for the summer and taught myself the fingerings in one community band, while sometimes playing sousaphone in another, but mostly trombone.

In collegiate marching band, we played King BBb recording bell tubas with a variety of harnesses. I had to give the 185 CC to an upperclassmen, but I got to borrow a Getzen/Canadian Brass CC. I did not like it, and cashed in all of my savings for my first (thankfully not last) 186CC in February of 1999. It worked well for me. I tried F a year and a half or so later, and got to borrow a 5 valve Symphonie, which started my love of the bass tuba. I've now bought 5 tubas, my first 186CC and PT-10 are gone, they became my cello and my first tractor, so I'm still ahead.

I guess in closing, everything with kids is an arms race. My boys are doing their first year of little League (definitely not a sport that I follow) and they keep wanting to upgrade to this glove and this or that $300 bat because that's what the other kids have. Gotta look cool, even though their skills aren't there yet. Under Armour everything, this Victus bat, that Rawlings glove, it's worse than tuba fights.



Why can't you just run whatcha brung?

[Bassboner]

It has been that way since I was in school (40+ years ago) . On trombone they push all kids to 547 bore with a valve. The assumption with academics is that you're working toward playing in an orchestra even though that's the least likely outcome of going to music school.

He can buck the system, and he'll probably be ok, except maybe in the most snobbish places. Still, Tuba players need to learn other fingerings. No music director above high school level is going dictate what key instrument to use. They may ask for something bigger or smaller. Directors generally don't have any idea about tuba keys unless they are tuba or bone players

[MikeS]

I guess in closing, everything with kids is an arms race. My boys are doing their first year of little League (definitely not a sport that I follow) and they keep wanting to upgrade to this glove and this or that $300 bat because that's what the other kids have. Gotta look cool, even though their skills aren't there yet. Under Armour everything, this Victus bat, that Rawlings glove, it's worse than tuba fights.

It’s tough to spend big bucks on something that they are going to grow out of. That said, my first base mitt is a Wilson Norm Cash model that I bought new in 1972. It has been rebuilt three times and will outlive me.* The good stuff can last a long time if you take care of it.

To bring this back to the original topic, I went to undergrad at what Steve described as “Out of State Public University with a Famous Professor.” I arrived with a Holton trombone that I dearly loved, and was told that I had to have a Bach 42B if I wanted to play in any ensemble in the Music Department. The why of it was never explained to me. My guess is it was engraved on a stone tablet they uncovered when they excavated to build Hill Auditorium.

*I do play first base less than any other position, which might have contributed some to its longevity. Here is a good bar trivia question- in baseball there are nine defensive players on the field. How many of them wear gloves? Answer: Seven. According to the rule book the first baseman and catcher wear mitts. The other defensive players wear gloves.

[Nemo]

Kids assume they'll need to buy and learn a CC eventually to make it in the big leagues, and haven't it beaten into them yet how hard that actually is. If you're gonna buy a tuba, might as well invest in one that you're going to keep for your career.

Nevermind the fact that 90% of high schoolers don't play at a level to know what horn is really a good fit for them, or the fact that most schools will let you borrow a horn exactly so you don't have to make that investment before you're certain it's worth it. I made exactly that mistake and ended up spending a few thousand more than I needed to (didn't get back what I paid for my first horn) if I'd just waited and bought my current horn once I'd played for longer and knew what I wanted.

[Tubeast]

Gocsick, I would have loved to learn more of that one exchange between your son and that famous professor:
What was your son´s response, and did that exchange have any conclusion?

I understand You´re not really seeking advice in this case, since what you describe demonstrates a general tendency in your views on that matter which I think I share.

Not having kids myself, I can still try and emphasize with a generic parent´s situation.
It´s been the same for generations, but some grown-ups seem to forget the inner workings of peer pressure they either mastered or suffered from when they were kids and teenagers themselves.

Whole industries are surviving upon
a) parents trying to compensate childhood trauma of their own, having sworn to themselves they won´t be "that parent" who 1) leaves their kids at their peers´mercy by failing to equip them with social and / or martial skills to shut foolish kids´mouths for good.
2) still lacking those same skills at the time they´re parents (and being painfully aware of that fact), didn´t have means or the semi-good brains to at least equip their kids with cool stuff so they might have a chance to "belong" on material grounds.
b) parents that had stardom status in their youth themselves, and know exactly what it takes to "belong" and how to manipulate their peers, and try all they can to create the same mechanics in their kids´ surroundings, so airheads can continue to float.

[prodigal]

I guess in closing, everything with kids is an arms race. My boys are doing their first year of little League (definitely not a sport that I follow) and they keep wanting to upgrade to this glove and this or that $300 bat because that's what the other kids have. Gotta look cool, even though their skills aren't there yet. Under Armour everything, this Victus bat, that Rawlings glove, it's worse than tuba fights.

It’s tough to spend big bucks on something that they are going to grow out of. That said, my first base mitt is a Wilson Norm Cash model that I bought new in 1972. It has been rebuilt three times and will outlive me.* The good stuff can last a long time if you take care of it.

To bring this back to the original topic, I went to undergrad at what Steve described as “Out of State Public University with a Famous Professor.” I arrived with a Holton trombone that I dearly loved, and was told that I had to have a Bach 42B if I wanted to play in any ensemble in the Music Department. The why of it was never explained to me. My guess is it was engraved on a stone tablet they uncovered when they excavated to build Hill Auditorium.

*I do play first base less than any other position, which might have contributed some to its longevity. Here is a good bar trivia question- in baseball there are nine defensive players on the field. How many of them wear gloves? Answer: Seven. According to the rule book the first baseman and catcher wear mitts. The other defensive players wear gloves.

You learn something new everyday,.like when you ask them to put a goat back in the field, don't expect them to do it. I woke up and wondered if anyone put Chocolate to bed, an.lo and behold, she was still out on her rope mowing away. At least the coyotes weren't out tonight!

[russiantuba]

Going to do my best to remain neutral minded on this, but knowing more of the situation and having done my doctorate under Jim Akins, I have bias against me.

I don’t require my undergrad music education majors to get CCs. In fact, I encourage that they don’t. Working on an article why for the journal to go “against the flow” to explain this.

I switched to CC my sophomore year of undergrad, despite my professor at the time encouraging to look at good BBbs too. I still have that tuba. Tubas are expensive investments and getting something that doesn’t fit YOU as a musician or your career goals and having to change will be detrimental to anyone that isn’t a trust fund kid. I learned this on my F tuba route.

A couple years ago, I had a student at my smaller program looking at graduate work in performance at a school equidistant from me as it is to blokeville. My student owned his own tuba (he has switched to CC, which he wanted and had a long discussion after two years of college on BBb), and the professor at this state school wanted F or Eb playing experience. Said professor ran for an elected position on the platform on providing poorer socioeconomic people opportunities. I messaged him and explained the school was borrowing a BBb tuba from a high school for a non major, and between my schools, the only non BBb tuba was a first generation Wessex CC with major issues. I explained the socioeconomic issues not just of him, but the region of Ohio he is from, and got the response that he needs his TAs to be well experienced on F or Eb since he has undergrads entering with one. It’s institutional gatekeeping at its finest.

I told my student to look at other schools even though his family sacrificed a bit to get him an F tuba. He took a TA offer, just concluded DMA auditions and got accepted everywhere and a TA offer for that. My other performance student at this small school bought a very rough condition F tuba and put some work into it. One graduate program he looked at this year, the professor couldn’t even play the horn (but didn’t take that into consideration on how he did on such “bad” equipment when giving offers).

I normally suggest undergrads doing performance to get a CC once in school and working with a sound concept because when they look at graduate programs, I have heard of professors completely dismissing student auditions because they play BBb, and have heard of other examples of just accepting them because they are already learning CC or they have the equipment.

When I was at OSU, I sat in the undergrad auditions. Every year, we would have a couple people audition on CC, and fundamentally, were not among the top of the pack. Jim was all about the level and output of what the students were playing musically, their potential, and would actually take into consideration if their horn was causing them issues. Too many programs are taking the current Curtis approach on where applicants must have CC and F, and if someone came in with an Eb tuba with the fourth valve taped down, they wouldn’t even entertain the audition (many won’t catch the reference).

Then, their entire decision on who they accept on a similar level that they invite to audition, once they realize they made it that far on a BBb, favor others just because of equipment. Another example of institutional gatekeeping.

I’ve done some adjudication where I have seen high school seniors on F tuba. Lack of fundamentals, poor pitch, poor control, and would probably be in a better place to learn the upper range and get the color on the big horn.

I have become more partial to the heaviness and depth of a Kaiser BBb sound myself as of late for orchestral playing.

—————

I will go on a tangent about F tuba sound. I have heard too many “Kollij” people play F tuba recently where it sounds like their CC. There is no tonal difference. I’ve always approached F tuba as a different sound concept. When I hear alto trombone, Eb trumpet or piccolo trumpet, Eb clarinet,etc., it is a different sound concept—I don’t have to look at the musicians and wonder what they are playing—I can hear it. I’ve always approached F tuba the same way. I suspect that this is changing because people are developing their sound concept on both horns at the same time, and thinking the horn for range.

I can still tell when a top player changes horns in solo repertoire, it still sounds like “them” but with a different voice.

[gocsick]

Then, their entire decision on who they accept on a similar level that they invite to audition, once they realize they made it that far on a BBb, favor others just because of equipment. Another example of institutional gatekeeping.

Gatekeeping (be design or unintentional) was really my point and the thing that bothered me... the post really wasn't supposed to be focused about my son's experience... but I am not a good enough wordsmith and my thoughts not really well enough formed to get the point 100%.

I guess my real point is more that... the system potentially limits participation from talented musicians who can't afford the "right" equipment. I am fortunate enough that I had the means to buy a nice tube for my kids to use outside of school, and my son worked hard and saved up enough money from his jobs to buy himself a good tuba for university..

I realize that education has all kinds of gatekeeping in other ways. The small liberal arts college my wife attended is now about $90,000 a year to attend. Education used to be the privilege of the wealthy.. now I can't help but feel we are headed back that way. I see it at OSU... as tuition and costs keep going up, funding keeps going down, and wages are essentially flat... I am seeing and more students either leaving the university because of finances or taking out loans to basically cover everything plus living expenses.

[bloke]

- There's far too much emphasis in college music instruction on so-called "classical" music (which I sort of view as the "title nine of music" - ie. very little of which would exist without heavy subsidization). It's my understanding that way I under 1% of the population is interested in listening to it. It's still a pretty strong tradition in continental Europe (though their cities are quickly crumbling, as are ours in the US), but in the United States I feel like symphony orchestras were created (first in the northeastern big cities) to show how sophisticated Americans can be, as part of a way to somehow overcome a societal inferiority complex (much as with Charlie the Tuna, of the old Starkist commercials). The very wealthy families that have propped up or nearly completely underwritten some American orchestras' exponentially-expanded budgets over the last half century (as this was the period when their budgets really expanded into full-time musician employment for some of them) tend to be evaporating both in their lineage and in their interest in this patronage. If any one considering going into the American classical music industry heard how symphony board members and executive directors spoke confidentially about the musicians behind closed doors, musicians would definitely begin to have second thoughts in regards to pursuing these careers. To those symphony board and management people (from bottom to top and with few exceptions in regards to this attitude), the biggest nuisance in regards to their "symphonies" (and notice that I left off the word "orchestras") is the musicians and paying the salaries of the musicians.

- The heart of classic orchestral music is central and eastern Europe, and they continue to overwhelmingly use B-flat tubas as their contrabass tubas, as they always have.

- Symphonically, F tubas aren't designed to cover a terribly large percentage of the total body of works and never really have, and - at least in the United States - it seems as though they are mostly used to play a tuba recital or two (which tend to be attended by twenty people or so). I realize very few tuba players own these, but I have honestly found my F cimbasso (particularly since it's an excellent instrument, which most of these aren't) to be more useful than my F tuba (covering a certain percentage of pieces encountered when hired to play at churches as well as pops concerts, which have become the majority of orchestra concerts), even though most (once played and judged by most players, I would predict) would rate my F tuba amongst the very best ever made.

- Just as most who become seriously involved in college tuba private instruction end up being gently (as that's what the teacher plays nearly 100% of the time in the US) or stringently ("you're never going to get anywhere until you buy a C tuba") coerced into acquiring C instruments, the same thing occurred with me as an impressionable 17-year-old... and I even paid for my very first one
with my own money that I earned (from playing music), and stuck with those things until just a few years ago (as is widely known here). C instruments are catching on in Europe where B flat isn't required, and they are alluring because the response is faster and they require less effort to play, but there's an easily observable trade-off in sonic qualities (comparing same models of both lengths in any size range). I suspect that B flat instruments scare some players due to the F-sharp in the staff issue (tons of cylindrical tubing to play a higher pitch, requiring more player accuracy, whereby this pitch is much more commonly encountered vs. A-flat on a C tuba a whole step higher) just as F instruments scare some players due to the C below the staff (with fewer models of F instruments offering contrabass tuba level resistance in order to lean into that pitch, ie.mostly with players not understanding how to play the instrument) issue. Moreover, C instruments are basically cheater B-flat instruments, just as large E-flat instruments are often used as cheater B-flat instruments. It's also just been in the past very few years whereby more C models are fairly easy to play in tune, whereas this has been the case with more models of B flat instruments for quite a few decades.

- As American reproduction of other types of high European culture is dying (as its cities are decaying), American symphony orchestras are dying as funding for many of them is retracted (and the tack of patronizing mediocre composers a well as moving over to more and more banal concerts - such as playing along with old movies, and bringing in old fossil rock bands to play in front of them - isn't going to save them), I would wager that the overwhelming majority of college studio teachers either don't play in an orchestra, or they play in orchestras that pay a handful of thousands of dollars a year, or they are occasionally called to serve as substitutes in per service orchestras (yet they aggressively teach European orchestral excerpts to their students), and I would also wager that very few of them are particularly good at playing chord changes, soloing over changes, know many changes to many songs (whether earlier 20th century popular songs, NOLA brass band tunes,1950s and later oldies, funk tunes, polka band music, klezmer, or other genre whereby a tuba player might be hired to play, these days), and nor are many of these teachers particularly good at performing/demonstrating/teaching beatbox techniques. Further, I doubt that many of them encourage their students to also study upright and electric bass as a double, much less trombone (whereby so many small combos already have a bass player, and - if a tuba player is looking to work in a combo - they're far more likely to find work as a trombone player in the front line, particularly if they can play without a music stand in front of their face), and much less encouraging their students to buy sousaphones.

post script: Tuba players (as a wide body of players from students to full-time professionals) - compared to all other families of wind players - put up with the most absurdly ridiculously-bad intonation characteristics (offered by so many models - and often in the pricier models), as if this issue didn't even appear on their checklists when shopping for instruments, and seem to mostly emphasize (based on online discussions) issues such as weight, ergonomics, types of mechanisms on board, finishes, and carrying cases.



bloke "who also doubles on classic typewriter keyboard technique, whereby I can type everything I'm interested in expressing, which tends to define longer post responses"

[bloke]

btw...You band director types need to stop judgin' me...

I'm posting for "comments only".

[russiantuba]

btw...You band director types need to stop judgin' me...

I'm posting for "comments only".

In adjudicated events, especially band competitions, I despise "comments only"--it appears to be an outlet to protect years of ratings or what-not.

I have used this option here in Ohio for Solo & Ensemble recently and plan to in the future. The lists, especially for euphonium and bass trombone, are severely outdated. I'm pretty sure the last time the euphonium list was updated was in the late 1980s when Dr. Paul Droste was still on faculty at OSU. Most of it is cornet and trombone rep.

If I want my students to do international competitions like Falcone, ITF, or certain college auditions that require music that is not on the list (that is much harder), I feel going through these events, playing for their friends and a judge, is going to give them more effective feedback without a rating. In fact, Ohio created the "collegiate class" recently for this reason, and they are scared it will be abused by people picking easier repertoire, so it goes for "comments only."

Ohio still has an archaic way for their all state process is for the student to record a solo from either our Class A or Class B list, so doing something like Falcone often gets in their way (gocsick's son just learned a new piece in a few weeks and was chosen). Also archaic is that they limit students from certain districts/schools in the final selection.

Getting a 1 at a local solo competition is secondary, at least for me, if it is used as a catalyst for larger competitions and performances to come.

[dp]

Think of this, at least 2/3 of collitch and university tuba studios are run by folks who, 10-20 years ago, were impressionable high school students just like the ones you noticed and described in your post.