bass and tenor trombone "doubling"

[bloke]

I prefer sitting in a orchestra section with someone with an old Conn bass trombone and maybe a mouthpiece no larger than a Schilke 59, as those (assuming a musical player) actually sound like musical instruments to me.

It takes me a few short moments (if I haven't done it in a while) to move between euphonium, F tuba, E flat tuba, and B flat tuba, but it's just hard for me to embrace a claim that someone who plays bass trombone can't figure out how to play a small bore tenor or a medium large bore tenor - particular since I know people that do all of that - as well as alto and euphonium.

I think I understand what you're talking about in regards to the so-called bass trombone mindset, but luckily I don't have to work with too many people like that.

[claf]

I think that playing "at the highest level", tenor trombone and bass trombone are definitely different instruments and worth the doubler "title" if you play them both proficiently.
However, I do agree with you that we could (and maybe should )certainly say the same for a tubist playing both bass and contrabass tubas.

I personally play almost every modern brass instrument from piccolo trumpet to bass tubas, with the exception of french horn (can't convince myself to stuff my hand in a bell and play with the left hand). Will probably soon add contrabass tuba.

At the wind band rehearsal yesterday (where I play tuba), I brought my bass trombone for one tune because it was more fitting for the part I had to play (and it was unanimously acclaimed after playing the tune).
In the symphony orchestra where I'm principal trombone, I sometimes bring my alto horn (if I am asked to cover a horn part) and my bass trombone (we don't have a 3rd played) if I'm asked to play the bass part.
In this context (playing several in the same rehearsal/show), I do consider it is doubling, because adjustments are required. Funnily enough, I find it easier to switch between bass trombone and tuba, than to switch between tenor trombone and bass trombone. Maybe just a register issue.
All of this, at the (good) amateur level. I'm far from being a pro.

I can't decide if playing bass and contrabass tubas is doubling because I don't play contrabass. However, most tuba players I play with play either one or the other. Only the pros play both. Well, except the tuba player in my symphony orchestra who plays bass (Miraphone Petrushka) in the symphony and Sousaphone in a Banda. He also played contrabass (Bb compensating Besson) but he sold it because he no longer had the opportunity (brass band) to play it and no longer had the time to practice it. He felt like he couldn't justify keeping it if not practicing it, because he could not use it without practicing. I think in this case we can consider it a double (need to practice to play it fairly good).

Back to me, I don't really consider playing trumpet and flugelhorn doubling, because I never practice flugelhorn and I'm mostly fine when I have to use it. On the other hand, I have to work on the cornet if I have to use it.

Conclusion: maybe some things that are considered doubles should not, and some things that are not considered doubles should be.

PS: Wow, did not expect to write that much, sorry for that long post.

[Rick Denney]

I used to think that too. And truth be known, my main axe is tenor. I didn't start playing bass until about 12 years ago. Bass bone is a different animal. Here's why:

1) function. Tenor plays mainly harmonic lines, but does get a few melodic lines from time to time. Bass gets a lot of roots. Oom-pahs. This is part of how we distinguish a bass part from just a 3rd tenor.

2) air. On smaller tenors, you can play a whole phrase before you run out of air. On bass you can't do that. This is part of the reason for 1) above.

3) required range. Before say the '70s or maybe' 60s, "bass" parts would be written to maybe C under the staff. And bass trombones would be made with a single valve. Single valve bones have a gap of 1/2 step either side of B below the staff. But now, people write music requiring those notes, and to get them, you need 2 valves (or an E/Eb valve, or an F or G bass... Etc...) Plus, to get those lower notes with a more stable sound, a bigger taper was needed in the same tubing length. So more and more, basses became more specialized instruments that require more specialized players.

4) positions. Everybody thinks the trombone has 7 positions, but tenor players have to learn a different set of positions for every partial. So maybe 70 positions. Bass bones have to know all those and then 3 times as many - a set of positions for each valve. So ~ 210 positions. Most bass boners just say "Eff it" and play louder so everyone just tunes to them. Sooo much easier, and who is to say it's not the way things really should be after all?

5) valves. I've been playing bass bone for 12 years (tenor for ~55?) and I still get my fingers in a knot when going fast under the staff. Getting slurs with alternate positions on tenor is a developed art. Doing that on bass with all of those natural break options with the triggers is just mind blowing. Can't keep up.

6) ledger lines down. I've practiced reading ledger lines up for decades, along with tenor and alto and non-transposed treble. But give me more than 2 ledger lines down, and a tenor player just falls apart.

7) personality. Bass bone players aren't quite tubers, and they've kind of broken off from tenor players. It takes a different personality to be ok with just playing whole-note roots all the time, where your solo options are "Makin' Whoopie", while tenor players also get "Getting Sentimental Over You".

So bass bone is clearly a double to the point of requiring a split personality. That's dedication, and should definitely be met with remunification by the union compliant employers.

Just my 4cents, as a doubler.

Yeah, I'm piling on, because I missed it a couple days ago, and because it's fun.

1. Also true for tubas. How many times has an orchestra player brought a contrabass and a bass tuba to a gig because of what was on the program? And the percussionists probably had stage hands to help them with their stuff, while the tuba player carrying two instruments just has to suck it up.

2. The air requirements for my Holton 345 are a wee tad different than for my Yamaha 621 F tuba :) Yes, I have switched between those very two instruments at gigs.

3. I would use a euphonium if I had to play Bydlo (AKA Ravel Abuse), an F tuba for the Damnation of Faust (though me playing that would surely undamn Faust enough for him to rise out of perdition and come after me), and a (large) Bb tuba for Prokofiev's 5th symphony, and these three parts would cover 3-1/3 octaves.

4-5. My F tuba has six valves with two on the left. Not only are the fingerings all different than, say, Bb, but the fingering patterns are also different in many spots. Is that any easier than the different positions between a symphonic tenor with one trigger versus a bass with two triggers? Sorry, but when using the slide, the positions are the same, even if the player has to know a few more positions for use with the triggers. Now, when it was a G bass trombone and the slide had an extension stick, the argument would be better.

6. Ledger lines? Really? You're going there?

7. Sometimes the tuba is asked to be a string bass, sometimes a fifth trombone, and sometimes a unique voice. I think the point is those differences don't constitute justification for a double, even though any one tuba player might be better at one than the other.

The accusation that tuba players just can't understand the differences is a little nuts, guys. When I was in the TubaMeisters, I played the bottom oompah part on some tunes, middle harmony on other tunes, and (once in a while) lead melody on other tunes. I was playing a small F tuba, and the other tuba player was playing a C. We often received praise because we could pass voicing from part to part without the obvious change in voice. (Granted, that praise came from civilians, not tuba players.) One tune would spend its time at the top of the staff, and the next tune was at the bottom of the staff or below. Nobody would have ever thought these required specialist skills that would make each member of the quartet exclusively different from the guy next to them. With respect to the trombone doublers whose feelings are hurt, we were hired as musicians and the needs of versatility in service of the music outweighed whatever optimalities we thought we might be achieving by specializing so narrowly.

Rick "who would always argue for more money, but who would still have to look his colleagues in the eye" Denney

[bloke]

Tonight, I'm playing a little one-hour show for a town's "art" whachmacallit. I'm playing electric bass and tuba...
THAT is a legitimate "double".
Also (if you saw some of these various ways these charts are written - only a VERY FEW with a staff and notes), you might consider it a "reading quadruple".

People like Bill Bell were completely expected to be competent double bass (all styles) players.

[Bassboner]

I prefer sitting in a orchestra section with someone with an old Conn bass trombone and maybe a mouthpiece no larger than a Schilke 59, as those (assuming a musical player) actually sound like musical instruments to me.

I don't get to play orchestra much, but when I do it's on 1st parts.

6. Ledger lines? Really? You're going there?

Oh, yeah. Reading 4 lines up is ok, even though they make clefs for that. I can read 2 lines down, but I'm not used to reading 4 lines down. I have to write in notes at that point. The worst is ledger lines down in alto clef. I honestly wish they would just switch clefs or indicate 8ba rather than make me count all those lines down.

I prefer sitting in a orchestra section with someone with an old Conn bass trombone and maybe a mouthpiece no larger than a Schilke 59, as those (assuming a musical player) actually sound like musical instruments to me.

I don't get to pick what kind of instrument I sit next to. I might pick a player. Not all players also play or own a bass. In fact, most tenor players refuse to play bass, and will bow out of a gig if asked to do it. They "can" do it, but they won't and wouldn't do a stellar job unless it's not really under the staff. It really depends on "how" bass it is, and how difficult it is. I "can" play F horn parts, but I'm gonna do it on a tenor bone.

I think I understand what you're talking about in regards to the so-called bass trombone mindset, but luckily I don't have to work with too many people like that.

Truthfully neither do I because there's generally only 1 bass bone in a group. This area has a lack of bass players, which is how I got hornswaggled into it in the first place. When recruiting bone players, I always ask if they play bass, and most of the time I get a nasty response. There's a conception that bass bone players do that because they washed out of tenor playing. Brian Hecht said in a public master class that that's how he started playing bass in college - he was getting nowhere on tenor and his teacher recommended a change.

[claf]

4-5. My F tuba has six valves with two on the left. Not only are the fingerings all different than, say, Bb, but the fingering patterns are also different in many spots. Is that any easier than the different positions between a symphonic tenor with one trigger versus a bass with two triggers? Sorry, but when using the slide, the positions are the same, even if the player has to know a few more positions for use with the triggers. Now, when it was a G bass trombone and the slide had an extension stick, the argument would be better.

Straight trombone has 7 positions.
1 valve trombone has 13 positions (well, 12 if you tune both Bb and F to the bumpers, which I personally don't).
2 valves bass trombone has 18 positions for dependant and 24 for dependant.

I played with a very good trombonist (semi-pro, had a day job but was doing a lot of paid gigs) who exclusively played valveless small bore. He could not ever get used to adding the valve, and he tried a lot. You could say that small bore and large bore, or straight and 1-valve are doubles, but we never do that.

Yes it is the same as various valve systems for tuba (comp / non-comp, 3/4/5/6 valves, minor/major 3rd on 3rd valve...). But apart from brass band there never is a "bass tuba" and a "contrabass tuba" part.

So I'm again saying that tenor and bass trombones ARE a double.
And that bass and contrabass tuba could have been a double if we needed both parts played at the same time in a symphony orchestra, but most of the time we only need one.

And Gene Pokorny play the RVW tuba concerto on a 6/4 CC tuba...

So I'm going to stick with my initial position which is related to union negociations.

Edit: @Bassboner I started on bass trombone before trombone because I liked the sound better. Both for huge pedals and lyrical parts (Bill Reichenbach on Wave). I started tenor only because I was asked to play 1st most of the time, and it's not the right sound and much harder on a bass bone.

[Rick Denney]

Read what’s in the upper left corner of many big German and Russian orchestral works, and you’ll see “Kontrabasstuba”. If you play in a German orchestra, traditionally, you’ll be expected to bring a Bb Kaiser tuba, rather than the default large Basstuba in F.

But if you want to play the RVW on a 6/4 orchestral tuba, despite that RVW wrote it for the standard British Barlow orchestral F that couldn’t win a arm-wrestling contest with my Yamaha 621, be my guest.

Rick “who’ll ask some pro bass trombonists next week what they think” Denney

[JC2]

It’s not often you’ll hear someone play tenor and bass simultaneously to an incredible level. It’s a different sound concept. You can usually tell pretty fast if a tenor player if ‘doubling’ on bass and vice versa. A great player can make it work for all intents and purposes, but the sound has some inherited traits from the primary instrument. I’m definitely splitting hairs here.

I’ve got a 4/4 and a 6/4 C. I usually use the same mouthpiece too. They’re quite similar really, I don’t change my sound concept at all. The smaller one bites easily for smaller ensembles. I guess maybe there’s a bit more of a conceptual difference between bass trombone vs tenor compared with small contrabass vs big contrabass tuba.

[catgrowlB]

I guess what I find a little funny is the fact that the modern bass bone isn't even really a true 'bass' instrument, even though it certainly plays bass parts. It is a gigantic tenor trombone with usually 2 triggers. But a modern 2-trigger/valve bass bone is pitched in Bb -- exactly like the tenor trombone, baritone horn and euphonium -- one octave higher than the BBb contrabass tuba. Old original bass bones were pitched in G -- a minor 3rd below the Bb tenor and modern bass, but were smaller. The modern bass bone is to the small bore straight tenor trombone, as a 6/4, 5-valve BBb tuba is to a 3/4, 3-valve BBb tuba. Bloke's 'fat bastard' Miraphone 6/4 BBb is the 'tuba equivalent' to what a typical modern bass bone is to trombones in general...

[bloke]

I guess what I find a little funny is the fact that the modern bass bone isn't even really a true 'bass' instrument, even though it certainly plays bass parts. It is a gigantic tenor trombone with usually 2 triggers. But a modern 2-trigger/valve bass bone is pitched in Bb -- exactly like the tenor trombone, baritone horn and euphonium -- one octave higher than the BBb contrabass tuba. Old original bass bones were pitched in G -- a minor 3rd below the Bb tenor and modern bass, but were smaller. The modern bass bone is to the small bore straight tenor trombone, as a 6/4, 5-valve BBb tuba is to a 3/4, 3-valve BBb tuba. Bloke's 'fat bastard' Miraphone 6/4 BBb is the 'tuba equivalent' to what a typical modern bass bone is to trombones in general...

this. ↑


Mine is pitched in F, and some trombone players turn the nose up at it, even though it's a true BASS trombone (but again, I suspect it's because I'm playing gigs that they think should go to B-flat bass trombone players, and friends of mine who play tenor, bass, tuba, and euphonium laugh, and tell me that I'm correct about that).

[BopEuph]

Mine is pitched in F, and some trombone players turn the nose up at it, even though it's a true BASS trombone (but again, I suspect it's because I'm playing gigs that they think should go to B-flat bass trombone players, and friends of mine who play tenor, bass, tuba, and euphonium laugh, and tell me that I'm correct about that).

I guess I'm basically that (though I suck at bass bone), but a friend of mine who's a full-time pro orchestral bass bone player now, who also plays awesome tenor and euph, loves the idea of an F bass bone. Seems like a fun instrument. I knew a guy in town who bought Don Waldrop's F bass after he passed, and the horn was almost as tall as him. Who couldn't love that?!

[Bassboner]

Mine is pitched in F, and some trombone players turn the nose up at it, even though it's a true BASS trombone (but again, I suspect it's because I'm playing gigs that they think should go to B-flat bass trombone players, and friends of mine who play tenor, bass, tuba, and euphonium laugh, and tell me that I'm correct about that).

You know what, a year or so ago I gave a huge dissertation against the very existence of a Bb 2v bass trombone. I thought "bass" should start at the F bass, which is called contrabass in trombone circles. I agree that the Bb bass trombone seems misnamed and that it technically plays exactly the same range as a tenor. The truth is that a lot of "bass" parts I just play on my tenor with a trigger and a big mouthpiece. As long as no one cares that my low C is sharp, I'm good.

Except that ...

The dimensions of the bell taper is what makes it a bass. This means it operates in a different space than the tenor. The mouthpiece for a "bass" makes it resonate in a different range. The fact that it operates in the lower partials rather than the upper partials means it is a completely different machine to steer. The physical dimensions and acoustics of the bass trombone make it better suited to sound better in the lower notes. It generally doesn't sound that good in the upper range. It owes it's existence to this very difference in sound.

I think you guys are defining a "bass trombone player" as anyone who blows into a bass trombone, and by that definition, no, bass bone is not a double. To me, a bass trombone player is someone who plays the thing below the bass clef staff better than I do. Some tenor players can do it but most can't. Honestly the best tenor players I play with absolutely cannot (and should not) play bass. I knew one who tried, and he just played single, and had to write in even single trigger notes. Couldn't even really get low C.

Saying bass bone is not a double would be like saying cimbasso isn't a double for a tuba player. There's a huge difference in bore, taper, mouthpiece, timber, spectrum, etc.

Tenor players can play pedal notes and bass players can play above the staff. But tenor players don't really move around with agility below the staff and the notes sound like a buzz saw. There are too many factors to ignore. Bass bone is a different animal. I still think that "bass trombone" should be pitched in F or even Eb, and have one or two valves. But the current arrangement makes it easier for tenor players to switch. Positions on an F bass are just so far apart that you only have 6 positions at most.

Ever hear Joe Alessi play bass trombone? He is not a bass trombone player.

James Markey WAS a tenor player (NY Phil) and SWITCHED to bass (Boston). To do this, there has to be an identifiable difference in hardware, technique, range, attitude, embouchure, everything. It's considered a different chair in an orchestra.

Brian Hecht played tenor in college and was washing out. His teacher recommended that he change, and something clicked. He got the bass bone, not so much the tenor. (He has been in the Atlanta and Dallas symphonies). Amazing player on bass was not so hot on tenor.

Someone who can play a low D on a tenor is not a bass trombone player.

[MikeS]

From “Trombone Technique” by Denis Wick:

“It has sometimes been suggested that this (the bass trombone) is a makeshift instrument, a large-bore tenor trombone, masquerading as a bass trombone. But the quality of sound when played with a very large mouthpiece is a true bass trombone sound- extension and enrichment of the tenor trombone sound in the lower register that is specifically the province of the bass trombone.”

“The bass trombone, apart from the difference in bore and bell flare (the bell tube expands much sooner on the bass trombone) is very similar to the tenor trombone that we have already discussed in great detail. It has exactly the same characteristics and similar problems; these are tackled in precisely the same way.”

Yeah, but what did he know anyway.

[bloke]

Cimbasso is not a double for B-flat/C/E-flat/F tuba, and neither are those different lengths of tubas considered to be doubles.
Alto flute and piccolo are not doubles for flute. They are all flutes.
Clarinets of different lengths are not doubles.
Soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone saxophones are not doubles.
Piccolo trumpet, E flat trumpet, C trumpet, and flugelhorn are not doubles for trumpet. Rather, they are trumpets.
When a second oboe has a movement or two in a symphony or a complete one movement piece where the player moves to English horn, that's not considered a double.
Different fatnesses of B-flat trombones or even E-flat alto trombone are not doubles.

Doubles are typically when a wind player also plays a stringed instrument, keyboard, or percussion - or some other crossover from someone's main instrument to any of these other totally different instrument families.
Crossing over the primary families of woodwinds or brass can be considered doubles, such as people who play Broadway shows that tour and can play the various flutes, the various clarinets, the various saxophones, oboe, and bassoon, because of the completely different ways in how some of them are blown and the fingering systems vary considerably between those five different families of woodwinds.
I suppose it could be argued that playing valved brass instruments and also trombone is a double, because of the slide skills (and the fact that trombone players need to learn how to fake playing legato) vs. the valve skills.

Bass trombone is a trombone, and it's just a big fat B-flat trombone that doesn't play high as easily/clearly and plays low more easily/clearly (just like a big fat tuba versus a skinny tuba), and even its primary auxiliary valve is the same as is found on tenor trombones.

Talking about how bass trombone written parts' musical rolls differ from tenor trombone parts is just part of generally being a well-rounded musician. When saxophonists play their baritone saxophones (or when oboe players pull out their English horns), they don't pontificate about how the parts are different and how they have to wear different musical hats, or how they have to adjust physically, or anything like that. They just do it.

This isn't difficult to understand.

James Markey WAS a tenor player (NY Phil) and SWITCHED to bass (Boston). To do this, there has to be an identifiable difference in hardware, technique, range, attitude, embouchure, everything. It's considered a different chair in an orchestra.

...yet he didn't exit professional life to go back to school and learn how to play completely different instrument, because it's not a completely different instrument, it's simply overwhelmingly selected (being a fatter version of the same instrument) the play the lower third trombone parts. Second violinists didn't have to study to play second violin. and second and third clarinetists didn't have to study to be able to play second and third parts on their instruments either, and bass clarinetists - likely already accomplished clarinetists - MAY HAVE taken a handful of lessons from someone who is known to play the bass clarinet particularly well (tone production, mouthpiece recommendations, excerpts interpretations), but I'm sure they didn't go back to school to study the bass clarinet.

I know just a little bit about "bass" trombones.
- I put one together for myself from what appeared to be a hopelessly destroyed Yamaha 322 bell section and a 60-year-old slide-tuning dual-bore Olds (.554" - .564") slide.
- I've got two bass trombones in here right now (from a university's studio professor) to take their playing slides completely apart, straighten their tubes, and put them back together (hopefully as well or better than they were put together when new), as well as having been asked to "split" their linkages to the in-vogue style of thumb and middle finger separated operation of their valves.



I also know that - when I have to play slide trombone, as I did on this recording session...
https://youtu.be/DKPDt_Ve06g?si=ajz3TxnppOIlfwXq
... that I have to practice my butt off, because accurate slide technique is totally foreign to a valved instrument brass player, whereby slide trombone (IN GENERAL) is - again - a legitimate "DOUBLE" when contrasted with tuba or baritone horn.
(Just for what It's worth, I do NOT consider myself to have mastered the trombone slide well enough to consider myself a doubler on trombone, even though I occasionally find myself playing it.)

[Bassboner]

Bass trombone is a trombone, and it's just a big fat B-flat trombone that doesn't play high as easily/clearly and plays low more easily/clearly (just like a big fat tuba versus a skinny tuba), and even its primary auxiliary valve is the same as is found on tenor trombones.

That's a super simplistic view. Again, playing a single valve trombone down to a D with some pedal tones in there doesn't really begin to use bass trombone skills. George Roberts played a lot of his career on a single valve, but he was helping to develop double valves and lay down the path for the future of the instrument. There are things you can do to achieve the full chromatic scale on a single valve with long pulls on the F tuning slide, false tones, lipping notes down, and just skipping those notes altogether. And those are another set of skills on their own that people don't really have to learn since the 1960s-70s when modern bass trombones became a thing.
{/quote}

...yet he didn't exit professional life to go back to school and learn how to play completely different instrument,

I didn't go back to school to learn bass trombone either. Not many with James Markey level skills. You can't expect any tenor player, even the best of them, to sit down and play real bass trombone parts. I can't do it, and I'm the most proficient bass hacker in my group of tenor players. Some people have a natural talent, but most who get it have to develop it. Many who try don't quite get there. I'm not saying bass is harder than tenor, just that it's a different set of skills that fall into the same class, but they are still different to the point of not being the same thing. A turkey and an eagle both fly using the same principles, but they are unmistakably different and non-interchangeable.

- I put one together for myself from what appeared to be a hopelessly destroyed Yamaha 322 bell section and a 60-year-old slide-tuning dual-bore Olds (.554" - .564") slide.

Yeah, no offense, but singles are very limited without access to the whole range. They can be used for a lot of old orchestral stuff (that generally doesn't go very low - you don't need any valves for a lot of old bass parts) and old big band stuff (same deal). But after people started writing Bs and Cs and started moving around in that range, you really need a double plug, and you need more skills.

Old school (40's) big band stuff doesn't really use "bass" trombone. I play a bit of that. I also play some newer music where I'm playing either real bass bone, tuba or string/electric bass parts that is definitely more difficult. Most of my other bass playing is trombone quartet, which goes the whole range - from picking up a smaller horn for a part all up on the staff to stuff that's very difficult to move around down under the staff so much. Robert Elkjer quartets are very demanding of the bass player, and you need a dedicated bass player to make it happen. I can play some of that but definitely there are Elkjer charts that I just can't play.

... that I have to practice my butt off, because accurate slide technique is totally foreign to a valved instrument brass player,

Yeah, I totally get that. It took me 20 some years to understand and be able to use the subtleties of a slide, and several to understand how to combine one valve with that. Moving from one valve and a slide to two valves and a slide is a bigger deal than it seems. Especially when combined with all of the other differences (air, range, weight, mouthpiece, embouchure, etc) . You can say what you want, but the typical proficient tenor player cannot step into a bass trombone and play real bass trombone parts. It has to be treated as a double for that reason.

[bloke]

Mostly, I see agreement - with occasional minor self-contradictions, yet seeming to prefer that things not be simply put (ie. "a fat B-flat trombone which responds better in the low range") and seem to wish for things to be more complex/lofty/exceptional (while not considering all of the presented analogies).

Symphony orchestras have parts assignments, yes.

again: Historically, really large B-flat trombones are a fairly new thing...just about exactly (and only) a century-old idea, whereby Conn introduced 9-1/2" bell instruments (the first version of the 70H) right around 1926, and Holton sorta followed suit. As late as the 1960's and 1970's, F. E. Olds, Yamaha, King, and others were still producing some 9-inch bell instruments (probably considered to be "tenor", these days - via all instruments' size inflation tendencies, as several of them were also dual-bore) offered forth as instruments suggested as best for playing 3rd or 4th trombone parts. The production of super-huge bass trombones has really only been a thing since the 1990's, and accompanied with reduced-resistance mouthpipes and valve designs (whether-or-not a good idea - time will tell, and there already is player reaction regarding these last-few-decades design trends...exciting to play - from the mouthpiece side of these instuments...less interesting-sounding - from the bell side of these instruments). These designs - at least, to my ears - amp up the volume/loudness while reducing the quality/sophistication of the resonance.

OK...to one of your points:
- a slide trombone is analogous to a 3-valve tuba or euphonium.
- an F-attachment slide trombone is analogous to a 4-valve tuba or euphonium.
- a 2-valves slide trombone is analogous to a compensating or 5-valve tuba or euphonium.
The latter two can both be played nearly fully-chromatically, whereas a two-valve trombone can easily (ie. without frantically pulling out valve slides) play an additional very low pitche which is requested less often (mostly in "big band" arrangements and pop orchestra arrangements - often with no tuba included in the score).


I can't imagine expressing my views more clearly, and - no - I'm not in the least offended.

[claf]

Is tuba a double for a trumpet player ?
Mostly same fingerings, same instrument family (brass), and you can even have them in the same key (some octaves apart).

Edit: no offense meant and no offense taken, I just like debating

[bloke]

Is tuba a double for a trumpet player ?
Mostly same fingerings, same instrument family (brass), and you can even have them in the same key (some octaves apart).

Edit: no offense meant and no offense taken, I just like debating

I've played a bit of trumpet...As long as it's not more than 45 minutes, and I'm not expected to play the "1st" part, I can do OK.
Maybe (??) it's a double...I'm not sure. Again, I can play it "ok" without having "studied" it, and applying musical taste principals.
That said, perhaps (??) the mouthpiece is so very different that (possibly?) it could be considered a "double". Articulating with contrabass tuba "power" totally ruins the sound of a trumpet, yes?

[Mary Ann]

To me, doubling means you can play two instruments well enough to get paid or asked to play, on both.
I don't think it matters what they are.
Some woodwind players get hired for shows where they play several all at once.
I was once asked to play a show that came into town (not here) because I was the only union member who listed violin, guitar, and mandolin, which was the requirement for the hire. I didn't because I was certain that the requirements were not going to fit what I could do on guitar. Classical guitar is not what is wanted in shows.
That was the end of any offers from the union, which was ok with me.

[bloke]

To me, doubling means you can play two instruments well enough to get paid or asked to play, on both.
I don't think it matters what they are.
Some woodwind players get hired for shows where they play several all at once.
I was once asked to play a show that came into town (not here) because I was the only union member who listed violin, guitar, and mandolin, which was the requirement for the hire. I didn't because I was certain that the requirements were not going to fit what I could do on guitar. Classical guitar is not what is wanted in shows.
That was the end of any offers from the union, which was ok with me.

violin/viola...??
B-flat tuba/C tuba/E-flat tuba/F tuba...??
oboe/English horn...
E-flat clarinet/B-flat clarinet/A clarinet...??
soprano/alto/tenor/baritone saxophone...??
B-flat trombone/B-flat trombone/B-flat trombone...??
steel string guitar, nylon string guitar, electric guitar...??

They may well require individual practice time, but - otherwise - naw.