Best choices to support 55-60 member band

[Willys]

As the lone tuba for our local concert band, I'm finding myself experimenting with different mouthpieces and trying to research BBb tubas which would provide an adequate foundation for our band. I started with an old style King with recording bell. I now have a Cerveny 681 which does offer more than the King and I enjoy playing it a great deal more. Switching from a Helleberg style mouthpiece to Joe's OG really brought out a rich core of sound from the Cerveny but I just can't get enough out of it to satisfy my ears, the director's, nor the opinion of trusted audience members.

Be it mouthpiece, tuba, or technique; I'm open to whatever you have to offer.

[Kevbach33]

Can't recruit a new player? That's what I'd try first before changing a thing.

Cerveny tubas, as I recall, are pretty light for tubas, being made from thin gauge brass. In this case, I'd let the instrument do more of the work. The resonance alone can make a difference in your sound supporting the ensemble. But if that's not enough...

Is the bell on the King (if you still have it) detachable? If so, you might be able to find an upright bell for it, and that can help in an enclosed space. A 19" bell would be ideal, but harder to find.

Otherwise, I'd be looking at a different make that was made a little heavier (like a Miraphone 186 or B & S 101/103) that can handle the extra volume need to support that large of a band. (Context: I use a 103 with a Laskey 30G, and even on the days when I'm by myself in a 70-piece band, it's plenty of volume.) You don't necessarily have to go 5/4 to get the needed effect.

Good luck!

[tubatodd]

@Willys my first tuba was a Cerveny 681 CC tuba that I got new in 1995. It was a nice horn with super smooth valves. Would I think of that horn as capable of holding down a band by myself? No. A few months ago I was the only tuba that show up to a rehearsal and i had to hold it down. I used my Besson 995 CC tuba. While it did fine, a 6/4 horn or something bell front would have helped a bit.

As they say with amplification and speaker cabinets...

"There is no replacement for displacement."

[ghmerrill]

I played for maybe 20 years in a couple of community bands of about that size (40+ members), and found that my Cerveny 781 was more than adequate for the task, even if I was the only tuba that showed up.

By way of contrast, when I decided to abandon the BBb world and go with a large Eb horn (Wessex Champion, Besson 981 clone), I often felt not quite up to what was required if I was the only tuba. It seemed to take a lot more effort in the contra range, and just often seemed not to be quite enough.

I really liked both horns, but came to regret giving up the Cerveny BBb. In terms of mouthpiece, I used a Schilke 66 on that horn -- which is what I'd describe as a "not too large" Helleberg.

[DonO.]

Maybe a Kaiser or a so called “6/4” model BBb? Something York-ish?

Really, your size band needs at least 2 tubas. 3 would be better.

One of my community bands is about the same as yours, and we have 5 tubas!

[Rick Denney]

Size matters. I can play loud enough on a smaller tuba, but not with the foundational sound needed from the bass section. In a resonant space, a grand orchestral design (6/4 York-style, Holton, and modern copies) can do that. In a dead space, a Kaiser rotary tuba with a tall bell has more punch off the stage but less depth when pushed.

The Cerveny is consider in those categories is a 601/701.

For mouthpieces, I think you’d have to be a pretty strong player to get any value beyond the OG. The Orchestra Grand cup with a Symphony backbore might put a little more point in the attack with a rotary Kaiser, but that would be pretty subtle. I use an Orchestra Grand cup and backbore in the Holton and the same cup with a Symphony backbore in the Hirsbrunner Kaiser. I have an OG that is my best choice so far in a 4/4 rotary Miraphone.

Rick “forward bell for outdoors with no shell or amplification” Denney

[tubanh84]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, and you're experienced enough to know this, but just so it's said -

This is a big ask. Tubas generally can't do that solo. We work in the orchestra as a solo instrument because we have basses and bassoons to help fill it out. And my guess is that your director has a "tuba section" sound in their head and is expecting you to be able to do that yourself, which is not at all how it works.

Given all the tubas I've ever played, I think my PT6 and Rudy 5/4 could have done the most credible job of what you're being asked to do.

But at the end of the day, all you can do is all you can do. Given all the horns you've listed, I'd take the Miraphone and do my best without breaking up my sound. Between my Cooley Helleberg, Mike Finn H, and Olka CB2, I'd take the Olka. Get as much fundamental as I could, limiting the upper overtones that get lost in the group, and call it a job well done.

[prodigal]

You'd be huffing and puffing, but I'd see how much you can put out of your Cerveny before your sound falls apart. See if a mouthpiece change (maybe larger in diameter, or bore?) helps you put more air through your horn.

A PT6 Rotary would probably be optimum. Good luck finding one used.

If you are going to change, try a 186, the F150 of tubas. (Or, in my case, the F150- PT-15 and M186 delivery vehicle!) If you can find an older, smaller bell one, they cut through bands pretty well with a little more edge, if you want a broader sound, look for a newer 186, or an Alex, or Yamaha 641.

[Mary Ann]

heh heh heh get a Hagen 497. That outta do it. Just trade in one of your cars.

[Rick Denney]

heh heh heh get a Hagen 497. That outta do it. Just trade in one of your cars.

Or your house.

But there are big Bb tubas out there that can make a lot of sound without becoming blatty, and are still more available and affordable than a 497, a Siegfried or a Hirsbrunner 193 like mine. The Cerveny 601 I mentioned is one such. A Conn 25J would also do it. Sorry to the poster who suggested it (not MA), but a 186 won’t do that compared to a big tuba.

In orchestra the tuba is usually a color instrument (or sometimes a 4th trombone), and the bass section is provided by string basses.

Most amateur concert bands play too loudly and the bass section needs many unison voices to get the right effect. But that’s the hand the OP has been dealt, and he has to make the best of it.

Rick “bigger tuba” Denney

[Thomas]

I regularly face a similar challenge in my local concert band.

Any decent large 5/4 to 6/4 german style BBb (I have a "almost no name Graslitz-style 6/4") with a mouthpiece as large as you can handle (I use a Giddings Szentpali CC) to maintain and control a tight dark sound will help. E.g. a Cerveny 601 with a PT88 style (I also like the PT AMH Paul der Große Pro and personally have issues with the original PT88) mouthpiece as an almost budget solution. I'd also avoid a setup resulting in a too bright or blattering sound when pushed as this will lack the fundament needed. Especially this is a lot depending on the individual playing style.

Depending on the location (e.g. in churches or location with a similar characteristic), my smaller 17" Besson BBb (same mouthpiece) works fine, too.

If money was no issue, I'd have a Gronitz PBK. I was lucky to play one of the new ones under various conditions. The low register which I need is ridicously good.

I found for me, it's the outer tubing size, not the valveset bore.

But do not go for names, test the instrument and mouthpiece setup. I always thought that my Alex 164 was a kind of gold standard in this respect as I was disappointed with a GR51 (although a very good instrument - which I owned for some years) in such situations. The Alex was great also in retrospective and almost untouched in sound. But most modern real Kaisers (5/4+ size) and some of the used market older ones regardless of manufacturer have a tighter and more stable low register below low BBb and are easier to steer in the upper octave regarding intonation and hitting notes.

[catgrowlB]

Try to see if you can recruit another tuba player to help you fill out the low end of your band. Otherwise, look for a decent condition Conn 2Xj, MW-25, or even a YBB-321. Those are good band tubas that sound and blend well in band, put out a bit more sound than your Cerveny 681, and are affordable used

[Willys]

Many thanks to you all.

We are in a very rural area and the band went quite a few years without a tuba until I was finally convinced to join. I honestly don't think there are other interested parties in reasonable driving distance (though I keep looking for opportunities to draft others). I gave the local HS's St Pete a shot at one rehearsal and it seemed like a step back from my Cerveny. For now, as dynamics dictate, I push right up to the point of blatting.

Part of me thinks I'll just offer what I can and another part smells the opportunity to purchase a different tuba. The Hagen 497 would be great as would be a Fafner BUT I gave up on financial irresponsibility some 20 years ago.

[bloke]

Here's an unpopular answer:

The 24-inch detachable recording bell 50 and 60-year-old B-flat Besson tubas are anything but popular, but they play remarkably well in tune and put out a tremendous amount of "just about 6/4 sounding" type of resonance.
Yes, they are top action.
The easiest ones to find are three valve compensating, and those remedy the mathematical flaws of the valve combinations 1 3 and 1 2 3 .

The four valve compensating versions with the detachable recording bells - I have found to be rare, and they're also heavier.

The three valve compensating version - with that big bell - has the capability of delivering false tones below low e natural about as well as any sousaphone.

Particularly as the sound is thrown out to the front, they are tubes which are heard, assuming the player is capable player.

It's not my daily player by any means, but
I keep one of these around, in case I need it.

To hold and play them, it's pretty much necessary to jam the bottom bow up on top of the left thigh next to the belly and tilt the instrument to the right. Yes, with the recording bell it's pretty top-heavy, but - as the three valve compensating version lacks the left hand 4th valve - the left hand can take care of the job of holding the thing up.

[prodigal]

The MW25 mentioned above would be good fit. Maybe a 190 in the Miraphone line....

I love orchestra.

[OhTubaGuy]

@Willys where are you located?
It can be tough to judge a horn from a practice room, but you might find a way to get behind some horns to try before putting money into it.

[Willys]

I live in northern Michigan but would be willing to make a trip if the details worked out. Maybe my budget would be a killer but I would really like to stay below $5k.

For those who mentioned a forward bell horn, one of the reasons I moved on from my King was how difficult it is to manage with the extremely limited space on our performance stage. With an upright bell horn, like my Cerveny, I can lower it from my lap to the floor (and back) between pieces, etc.

[Wilco]

It just doesn’t work on your own. You either would have latge woofy sound, trying to fill everything up or have a more compact sound with clarity. I would go clarity…

I tried it with a lot of horns but never got there (very large sound, nimble, in tune and clarity). Something has to give…

Of the Bbs and one CC I had this was my top 5:
- Hirsbrunner 5 valve rotary
- Melton 200 6/4
- Melton 25
- Miraphone 188
- Conn 25 J upright bell.

[lost]

I'm always the contrarian opinion, but I've heard huge sounds from the old style king tubas, sound that is present and cut through. The bigger tubas won't be as distinct. Maybe this is what you are after. Encourage you to experiment with larger mp's.

[bloke]

I'm always the contrarian opinion, but I've heard huge sounds from the old style king tubas, sound that is present and cut through. The bigger tubas won't be as distinct. Maybe this is what you are after. Encourage you to experiment with larger mp's.

I listened to a guy up in Manitowoc, Wisconsin behind a German band (I can't remember how many pieces.. something between 12 and 16... Jeremiah Eis was playing) sound great on one of those recording bell King tubas behind that band.
I like those a lot, and the uglier looking and larger instrument that I recommended above is similar in that it features a recording bell and plays remarkably well in tune (though top action)... the three valve compensating Besson instruments that had the 24-inch recording bells... They show up fairly often for pretty low prices.

I myself have an ugly duckling instrument, a Miraphone 98, though it's in another price range. The point being that I had to overcome the fact that it's a weird looking thing and embrace the fact that it's an incredibly fine playing thing. The recording bell version of the Besson English tubas is pretty ugly, and the recording bell version of the king is considered not as cool as the upright bell version, but recording bells accomplish something, and I believe it's to the good, even though it makes it more difficult for the player to hear what they're doing.