My Meinl Weston "6465"

[Sousaswag]

Yes, that is on my list next time it goes in.

[Sousaswag]

Does anyone know…

If the 6450/2165 share the same 5th tuning slide crook? I don’t want to buy the entire 5th slide if I don’t have to…

I’m about to order from MW, the 5th slide assembly for the 6450, as well as outer tubes for the main slide. Dicey, I know, but I had success with the leadpipe and have been getting email responses, so…

Anyone know for sure? I’d assume they are the same, but I am not certain.

[MiBrassFS]

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[Pauvog1]

I don’t have access to either to measure, but I have seen the 5th valve published spec on the 2165 5th valve as 0.807” (it sits on the small side of the main tuning slide) and the 6450 5th valve as 0.846” (it sits on the large side of the main tuning slide). I would think maybe they’re not the same crook.

Interesting, so would the larger bore / sitting in the larger side he f the slide make the 5th valve combos more open then? If so, I'd maybe be tempted to leave it as is for the 2165 to build in a little resistance.

I have no clue on this, just spit balling!

[MiBrassFS]

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[Sousaswag]

Ultimately, I want that main tuning slide to fit plug and play. I don’t think moving the 5th valve will hinder anything, since I like how the Baer plays. I think the smaller main slide and dogleg will give it that extra resistance anyway.

I would imagine that they didn’t use a larger 5th rotor, but they very well could have. If they used the same piston block on each horn, how much sense would a different sized 5th valve make? The Baer’s main slide just doesn’t get to the .846” or whatever it is until the large side; the 2165’s is probably already that big on the SMALL side.

[MiBrassFS]

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[Sousaswag]

BOO!! If that’s right, looks like I’m into this horn a 5th rotor, too, if that information is correct.

In any case, I asked MW to get me all 5th valve slide tubing. Crook, inner, outer, and those two weird bends out of the rotor.

Keeping in mind, I’m still probably 6 months out from just having all the parts to put on this thing. The wait time is crazy, but at least I don’t pay for them until they’re here.

[Sousaswag]

I've done a LOT of playing on this horn over the last few months, and had a few more tweaks made to it...

I got tired of the mouthpipe angle being slightly uphill, and just a bit too high. The pipe that was on the tuba, and subsequently Keith's first copy of that pipe's bend, was about a half inch above the original factory receiver mark stamped to the bell, and the pipe also ran uphill, sort of like Miraphone tubas, rather than coming straight off the bell. I prefer the latter.

I asked Keith to put a small bend in the pipe to bring it back down to the factory mark, and bring it slightly more around the bell, to eliminate the "Yorkish turn" as I call it. I don't like the angle of the Nirschl/HB50/other York copy tubas. It feels like it doesn't fit my lap. This tuba, in it's original state, also had that quirk. It's fixed now, and I don't have to shove my legs under my chair to get the horn low enough to play. Success!

While it was in, I also asked to have those old style valve caps chopped down - Cutting away the top ring was more for vanity purposes, to make the horn look a little more modern. I meant to have this done during the initial build, but forgot about it. I like this look better.

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Before

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After

It feels really good to have this thing even more dialed in now. I've been using a 2-piece Sellmansberger Solo 2 with it that, to be honest with you, lights it up. Even more than the Orchestra Grand. I've never experienced such a shocking response change with a mouthpiece before. It was really cool. That piece will stay with this tuba!

The only thing left to do is wait for those parts (6450 main slide, dogleg, thumb linkage) to show up from MW. Let the waiting continue...

[Sousaswag]

Sheesh, this is becoming a really expensive but exciting tuba month for me, with the Rotax work finally getting done and now this nice surprise…

That surprise is PARTS!! Yes, some but not all of the things I ordered for this tuba arrived today.

6450 main tuning slide - it actually came with inner and outer tubes, which is AWESOME. I thought I’d just be receiving the crook.

6450 dogleg

6450 5th linkage - I’m HOPING that I can just stick the extended lever on there and it will work, but if I can’t, oh well. I’ll think of something. This is also the entire unit, complete with the spring, mounting bracket, linkage, and lever.

All to the total of $430. Yikes! Good thing I’m almost done messing with tubas.

So, here’s where I’m at: I can either ask Keith to zip all this onto the tuba as it is, rotor under the main valve block, and go with that.

OR

I can order a 21.5mm 5th rotor to place on the OTHER side of the main tuning slide, ala Baer model.

To be honest with you, I’m leaning towards the first option. It’s 20.5 vs 21.5mm for the 5th valve, which isn’t a big difference. I’d STILL need to mess with the entire 5th tuning slide, and be in it a rotor too.

Mind you, I did order the parts needed to make that conversion happen, which means I may still just do it, but later. After all, I wanted a Baer and am still WAY under the total cost of a used model. But, the rest of the parts are JUST for the 5th valve, nothing needed to make the horn how I want it to be.

I’ll post pics later. I don’t know when I’ll actually get these installed, but I’m thrilled that MW has come through for me again. Yes, there’s a wait, but if you’re willing to wait (and pay) then you’ll probably get the parts eventually

[York-aholic]

I say, run it with what you've got, then when the larger rotor comes, put that on. See which plays better.

Heck keep both of them on!

[the elephant]

Once you are finished I can help you defray your costs if you sell me all the old parts (slide assy, lever, etc.). If you buy a valve and slide assy I'll take the old ones.

If interested, please PM me. Let me know what you have and what you want for them.

Wade

[bloke]

Wade has discussed my 2165 (which I made as much like a 6450 as I could manage)...

I left the 2165 fifth rotor, circuit, and lever assembly in place.

I did use a 6450 dogleg and - with the 6540 main slide bow - I opened up the small side to the bore of the 2165 fifth rotor, worked the taper of that bow smoothly into the large side - after having done that, and then reused the small side slide tubes from the 2165 main slide.

The "tone ring" (per early model 2165 tubas)...Well, it obviously reduced the size of the 2165 bell interior to closer to the interior dimensions of the 2265 bell (which is the bell used on the 6450), which is why I asked-for-and-found one, and (no...I did not solder it in place, but...) two-sided-taped it into place. (Probably I should have tacked it with a little bit of some sort of glue, but I wanted it to be a really easy thing to undo...and the bell was "pretty", so I really didn't wish to mess up its looks.

NOT the mass or weight of the tone ring (but the bell interior SIZE REDUCTION via the tone ring) added a very noticeable amount of "bark" to the resonance of that instrument...

...the experimental "tuning/6th" valve...It worked fairly well, but I believe it should have been much smaller bore and placed much earlier in the capillary portion of the instrument... Why? Because (being such a large-bore rotor (same bore as the 5th rotor of the 6540), the absolute-minimal length added was still a bit too long (for some-or-most of the sharp-pitch issues), whereas a SMALL rotor with a SMALLER bore - the minimal length of the bow could have been a bit shorter...ie. it over-corrected the innately sharp pitches presented by the 2165/2265/6450 bugle by just a bit too much.

[Sousaswag]

Wade - I'll keep that in mind.

Yeah, the 6450 main slide won't necessarily be as "plug and play" as I had hoped. It is CLOSE, but not quite the bore size of the 5th rotor on the small side. That said, it won't be a HUGE amount of work. I will bring it by Keith's shop to discuss options, timeline, etc, with someone way more knowledgeable than myself.

The 5th lever - it looks like it will be in a much better place for me when properly installed. Unfortunately, the place where the linkage screws in needs to be on the other side. I thought I could just screw it on, but alas, I cannot. I DID put the nice new spring onto my horn to replace the old mangled one, so that's something.

I'm heading to Keith's at the end of the week to put some new springs onto my F tuba, as well as have him show me how to reinstall rotary valves. Yes, I know the internet exists, but I'd rather have someone show me in person so I don't screw something up, and so I can use the right tools. I will probably bring these parts and the big horn so we can get some more accurate measurements, bore sizes, etc.

Pics as promised...

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Here's about where that lever would live. The thumb ring will likely need to be raised just slightly to be perfect for my thumb.

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Here is why I can't just screw this on as it is.

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What everyone wants to see - The main slides. Boy, that 2165 slide really is big.

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The difference in the taper really is quite noticeable. Wow.

[bloke]

5450 main slide bow is the same as 2165.

[Sousaswag]

Update time.

It's taken me over a year to accumulate all needed parts for this conversion. I just need ONE more part, and I'll be set.

I have:

6450 Main Slide, Inner/Outer Tubes

6450 Dogleg

6450 5th Rotor, Stop Arm, Stop Plate, all necessary screws

6450 5th Thumb Lever, Linkage

6450 5th Slide Runners, 5th Slide Inner/Outer Tubes

I need:

6450 5th Valve Crook

90 degree 5th runner bends (Keith already made some)

To those curious, this whole process in just acquiring the parts has taken a nutty amount of time. As I've said over and over again, I'm impressed that I've been able to get anything at all. Buffet's reputation has never been good with this sort of thing, but I have had zero problems with them throughout this process.

As far as cost - I will include a breakdown here for those interested. YMMV on this, but I'm not sure that I'd necessarily recommend anyone else take it this far unless you get a really good deal on a 2165 as I did. I don't quite remember exactly what everything cost me, but I'll give you some ballpark estimates with this squiggle thing (~)

2165 - $8,500

Initial Repairs/Mods - ~$1,200

MAW Valves - $1,200

Mouthpipe - $350

Mouthpipe Bend/Install - ~$150

Main Slide/Dogleg - $235

5th Rotor & Small Parts - ~$400

5th Slide Inner/Outer Tubes - $150

5th Slide Runners - $120

5th Thumb Linkage - $160

I think that's all of it so far. As you can see, I'm still well under the new street price of either model 6450 or 6450/2 before installation of all these things. Remember, you've got to pay someone to put all this stuff on your horn! To ME, though, this is still worth all the hassle and all the waiting around. There will not be another tuba out there quite like this one, and it already plays very well.

As far as a timeline, I still don't quite have one. It HAS to wait until my Holton 345 is done. As far as I'm aware, the main body of that tuba is pretty much done. I got some sneak peaks at the bottom bow and the top bow and they look brand spanking new. I would guess that I might have this tuba done-ish around November or December. I will feel less bad about sending it in for this work when that 345 is done, as my band has come to really enjoy the sound I get from the big tuba(s).

Here are some photos of my ever growing "parts shelf" containing everything and then some from this post. You will also see the new 5th runners and thumb ring for my F tuba that I can zip on there once I get the last bow from Willson. Waiting on parts. Story of my life lately.

Cheers

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Tuning Slide, Dogleg, Rotor, 5th Linkage, Willson Ring

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Willson runners, old 2165 pipe, B&M Buttons, 6450 5th Runner

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All the previous stuff, plus 6450 5th Inner/Outer Tubes, Small Parts

[prairieboy1]

Thank you for posting about your horn. It is absolutely beautiful! Enjoy it!

[Sousaswag]

Well... Time to update this thread right after I updated my 2141 thread.

As of today, I believe I have ALL necessary parts to make this final conversion to the 6450 setup (except the Fafner bell). Will I ever get a Fafner bell? IDK. Probably not anytime soon.

Everything needed:

6450 main slide w/ inner and outer tubes (CHECK!!)

6450 dogleg (CHECK!!)

6450 5th rotor with all small parts (CHECK!!)

6450 5th rotor 90 degree runners x2 (CHECK!!)

6450 upper 5th runners x2 (CHECK!!)

6450 5th slide w/ inner and outer tubes (CHECK!!)

6450 5th thumb lever w/ linkage (CHECK!!)

6450 Thumb ring (CHECK!!)

6450 leadpipe (CHECK!!)

Little things (ferrules for the 5th runner connections, braces, etc) that may be missing, I can have fabricated here no problem. It was important to me to get all main parts directly from the factory for a few reasons.

1) They're the ones who MAKE them, so I can be as certain as possible that they're the right bore, taper, etc

2) I wanted this to be as "plug and play" as possible

3) I didn't want to slow Keith down by asking him to make a bunch of stuff and need the tuba longer

4) I can't afford to buy a 6450 brand new, but want this to be as close as possible to a 6450 without spending 6450 money. If I could support MW in any way I could reasonably afford, I wanted to.

I will tell you all this - If you want to modernize, upgrade, repair, or whatever, one of these older Meinl Westons, expect a LONG wait time on your parts, and try to order everything all at once. That's why this has taken so long. I didn't get everything in my first round of parts, or the second. It took me 3 separate orders to acquire all that stuff. And that's totally on me, NOT Meinl Weston.

You should also expect to spend ~$2K in just parts, shipping, (nowadays) tariffs, and whatever else. I didn't keep exact track of it, but my rough estimate is around the $1500-$2000 mark.

Then, you also have to pay somebody to install it, and install it correctly. I haven't gotten that far yet.

So... Is all that worth it? To ME, yes. I freaking love this tuba. It's unique, it's mine, it plays great, sounds great, and I love playing it. Would I recommend someone else go and do all this for a 2165? Nah. Probably not. It takes a special kind of crazy to do all this. But, it IS realistically the only modernized high quality Holton style 6/4 out there that the average person can get their paws on. 6450 yes, but for many it's priced out of range. If that's the style you want, your options are slim, especially if you want a CC. We all know factory Holtons need a bunch of work too, and they're rarer than a 2165 anyway.

I don't have a great timeline on this thing yet, but as soon as my 345 is done you can expect this one to be right behind it. I'm really hoping by May or June I'll have both of them wrapped up and dialed in. My Eb and F tubas just need some replacement parts soldered in, and some other small things, and maybe by August I will be DONE F'ing with tubas. (or not).

[bloke]

The 6450 bell is smaller.

If you can find an EARLY 2165 TONE RING to install just below the bell throat, that's the thing NOT on your list that will do as much as anything else to make it sound more like a 6450...and expect to tuba to then weigh right at 30 lbs.

I've done all of this, but I have no idea who currently owns that instrument...I wonder if it's in upstate NY (??)

[Sousaswag]

Sound wise- I like what the original bell offers. All this stuff is meant to take all the bad playing qualities of the 2165 out, and put the Baer’s good playing qualities in.

I like to say I’m taking all the Warren Deck out of this tuba.