DCI Costs—a pending collapse

[russiantuba]

Over the years, I have had students who have some urge to do DCI.

It’s that last minute sign up time for some of them, and I looked at some of the camps for one of the top groups (Bluecoats) as a sample, as many will want to apply here and potentially several others.

The audition packet is $25. I saw one of these in the years past, basically a couple breathing exercises, some very basic fundamentals exercise, and warm up chorale type stuff.

Each camp is $225, and getting a call back means you have to pay for the full camp and sometimes I’ve seen 2-3 call back camps. It looks like a spring camp for invited members is also a fee. Others average $175 in the top groups. No clue on video submission costs.

The full summer cost isn’t listed. What I have seen for past years averages $6000. I guess this doesn’t seem so bad compared to other camps for other fields, but when sleeping on a gym floor on an air mattress, it seems like an archaic way.

Applicants also have to provide transportation to each camp and call back, often requiring flights. The camp fees and such—I understand renting the space and paying the staff, but if you have hundreds show up to each one, it should well cover the costs.

Simply put—it was something I could never afford. I grew up poor and I would have rather invested into an instrument, which I did. A colleague in the tuba world still involved in DCI mentioned how he would go into the woods and recycle cans as a kid to help pay and do other fundraisers, and how simply now, these stories wouldn’t happen.

I’ve see a few corps go under—and now, on the websites, I see no costs listed, and all mention why their prices are high. I haven’t looked in a while, but I’ve never seen this much talk on the fees and fundraising for the corps.

Could DCI as a whole go under? Will there be a major change?

Why do I care? I have students and alumni who are interested and want to give them the best advice.

[dsfinley]

Marching band in general (not just DCI) has become ridiculous. While I do enjoy the shows, custom uniforms, ridiculous props, choreographers who charge more than they’re worth, ridiculously large staffs etc. these things are going to cause public school band programs to disappear. My father in law taught at a school in the area that competed at the BOA grand nationals level. Their band fees were over $3000 a year just to participate. It’s insanity. I would’ve never become a musician if this was the case for me.

[bloke]

The six weeks Interlochen Arts Camp fee is currently over $10,000, and then there's getting there and getting home, all the miscellaneous expenses, etc., etc., etc.

Decades ago, my daughter's youth orchestra sent her there on a full scholarship one year, and the next year she won the Emerson scholarship (is/was it one student per state or two?) which covered her tuition. We sent her to Interlochen Arts Academy up there for 12th grade (thus her diploma is from there), whereby she obtained a scholarship for roughly half of the tuition.

money money money money money money money money

Fine arts performance is a racket, performers are not those who end up being the beneficiaries of the racket, and many of those who study to be performers never end up being performers.

A life of sitting down in front of a music stand and playing someone's else composed notes is never going to make anyone wealthy, and neither is teaching others to do that.

By the way, the wealthy - who underwrite a great deal of this - generally view fine arts performers as savants - ie. curiosities.
(Oh... If you try to suggest to them that tuba players are musical artists, they're going to make a funny face. They're into violinists and pianists.)
Additionally, when you ask them (who view themselves as supporting the arts) as seeing it appropriate to support artists as a way to support the arts, they often admit that they've never thought of it that way, mostly thinking of themselves as supporting arts "education", and not really giving a damn about supporting the artists themselves.

[prodigal]

I believe that part of the problem is making an "artistic" endeavor into a pseudo-sport. Qualitative judging is far from definitive.

My kids do ToB. I help as asked for. I thank God Almighty everyday that I'm an orchestra director!

Granted, it sure makes a repair market with uncoordinated teenagers and delicate instruments.

[bloke]

I believe that part of the problem is making an "artistic" endeavor into a pseudo-sport. Qualitative judging is far from definitive.

My kids do ToB. I help as asked for. I thank God Almighty everyday that I'm an orchestra director!

Granted, it sure makes a repair market with uncoordinated teenagers and delicate instruments.

British brass bands have always been competitive, but when American concert and marching ensembles became so much more competitive (with "winners", rather than just ratings or perhaps just a festival whereby everyone just performed and it wasn't even a competition), there was a sarcastic saying going around (perhaps in the later 70s) amongst musicians:

"The purpose of music is to win."

Picking up on rhetoric and undertones, I personally believe that this winning thing, the trophies, and all that stuff, leads to a lot of resentment.

[BopEuph]

I marched in Chiefs at FSU. Some of the members also did DCI in the summers, and my friends and I didn't see the point in spending thousands of dollars to sleep on gym floors. I only did Chiefs to get to go to games for free, kinda half-assed the band (since a large chunk were not the best players, and underclassmen were hazed, I didn't have any desire to put in more than the bare minimum), and couldn't see paying thousands more for an even worse experience. Maybe marching band wasn't for me, because I ditched it after sophomore year so that I could have my weekends back.

I think a difference between camps like Interlachen and DCI is that one was more educational, one more about competition. Sure it gave you life experiences, but I think the skills learned from DCI were even less applicable than the ones learned at a music camp. And at least you got to sleep in a bed at Interlachen.

That being said, my parents couldn't afford either, and it didn't seem like a smart investment, anyway. Spending that much money on a career that makes me about what a high school band director makes in the first place seems dumb. And I'm doing just as well as my symphony friends are, with just an undergraduate degree.

Granted, it's still not a great living, but I didn't put myself tens (or hundreds) of thousands in debt to get where I am.

[arpthark]

I was in a competitive high school marching band that did not go overboard with the theatrics or with the budget, but still did fairly well and I viewed it as a rewarding experience. It was fun to practice something for a while, do it really well, and get accolades for winning. My director was a sort of father figure to a lot of us and he really emphasized the music, along with teamwork, collaboration, and hard work, so I think it built character for me and a lot of people like me. But of course that meant we didn't really focus on "real" music until spring, because fall band rehearsals were full of marching band stuff. State finals were usually around the end of October, so after that we would rehearse Christmas music until December, and then the "real" music in the spring. Also, being in the South, football was king and there was tension between the band and the football team. Typical high school stuff.

College band was an entirely different story. Really just a constant party, which was definitely not my scene. The goal in my section was to play your sousaphone as loud as humanly possible. There was lots of day drinking and shenanigans, also not my scene. I'm bored to tears by football and game days were torture for me, so I gunned for a scholarship that waived my marching requirement and was so glad to get it and take advantage of that after two years.

A lot of guys were really into DCI. It was interesting. I feel like we took a high school band trip to the finals in Indy once or twice. Those groups sounded like "professional" marching bands and I was into it, until I found out that, no, you don't get paid to do it, you have to pay to be in it! That's when I lost interest completely, as someone who wasn't really interested in the marching aspect of marching band. In general, the people in my college marching band who were really into DCI were also the ones who were the worst players, frankly. That said, you have folks like our own Wade Rackley and Mike Roylance who marched it, liked it, and are fantastic musicians to boot.

[Three Valves]

Marching band in general (not just DCI) has become ridiculous. While I do enjoy the shows, custom uniforms, ridiculous props, choreographers who charge more than they’re worth, ridiculously large staffs etc. these things are going to cause public school band programs to disappear. My father in law taught at a school in the area that competed at the BOA grand nationals level. Their band fees were over $3000 a year just to participate. It’s insanity. I would’ve never become a musician if this was the case for me.

Robert Strekfuss or his wife did all his own band arrangements and choreography at my HS before he went on to U of DE.

If there was a hit on the radio, he just scored it out.

SOP and Jungle Boogie were among his best.

[Three Valves]

College band was an entirely different story. Really just a constant party, which was definitely not my scene. The goal in my section was to play your sousaphone as loud as humanly possible. There was lots of day drinking and shenanigans, also not my scene.

That was definitely my bag, baby!

[Three Valves]

By the way, the wealthy - who underwrite a great deal of this - generally view fine arts performers as savants - ie. curiosities.
(Oh... If you try to suggest to them that tuba players are musical artists, they're going to make a funny face. They're into violinists and pianists.)
Additionally, when you ask them (who view themselves as supporting the arts) as seeing it appropriate to support artists as a way to support the arts, they often admit that they've never thought of it that way, mostly thinking of themselves as supporting arts "education", and not really giving a damn about supporting the artists themselves.

[bloke]

DCI (top level young people marching and playing) vs. Interlochen (top level young people sitting down and playing)... I don't really view the difference as being "competition" vs. "education".
They're both educational and they are both quite competitive. I believe that both groups of young people go home after those experiences playing better and with far more attention to detail.
I see them both as attracting the very best who are interested in those things (and who manage to acquire funding to do it) and putting a large group of young people all in one place so they can grow even farther.
Further, I respect the playing abilities of the top level in DCI corps... I've heard too many videos to not respect them. Additionally, many lifetime professionals come from corps and theme park experience.
In particular, the competition at Interlochen is to play in the WYSO vs. the second prize of getting into the Interlochen Philharmonic (or neither) - and then competing for chairs (with the booby prizes being offered spots in one of two wind bands... ' sorry to say but: truth).
WYSO "why-so" - as they refer to it - as they refer to it - stands for World Youth Symphony Orchestra. I don't know how widely their concerts are live radio broadcast these days (as they were in the past), but they are certainly available to watch online.
The playing is top notch, and people vacation there (partially for the amazing summer climate there, but also) to hear that orchestra, and pay for not cheap airline ticket prices, not cheap concert admission tickets, and pay for not cheap hotel rooms to hear it. Finally, just like DCI, there's no soft-peddling in consideration of their age. They take on some of the very most difficult literature every summer and with no more time to put it together than professional orchestras. As an example, when my daughter was in the 11th grade, they played Shostakovich 11 which features - in one of the later movements - a very high range and very extensive English horn solo. At that time, my daughter didn't have a particularly special English horn.. only a Hans Kreul (German made, which was often badged as Miraphone in the United States), so she used an instrument to play that solo which belonged to the Camp/Academy. I wasn't there to hear her, but I heard the recording, and I'm not sure that I've ever heard a better performance of that (and - if anything - I'm more critical of my own children's playing than I am of other people's playing). At the end, she got a 90 second or so standing ovation before any of the other soloists in the symphony were recognized, and before any sections of the orchestra or the entire orchestra was recognized. She returned home after that summer with a tremendous additional amount of confidence in her playing (analogy: as if she was a field goal kicker who won the game at the end via h three points putting her team over the other by one point or something like that), even though she had played the entire Haydn oboe concerto with a local per-service orchestra two years earlier as a ninth grader...ie. the status of the WYSO, and the large size of the audience...

[russiantuba]

With Interlochen, I can only assume you send in one recording and pay the application fee that costs less than $100 (can’t easily find this), and then only submit a video and then are responsible for travel if selected.

Drum corps—if you REALLY want to do it, you need multiple corp options, then travel to the nearest camp, spend $200, and if you get a call back, travel to a even further camp, and if you don’t get a contract but another call back,an even further camp and another $200. So you are already at $600, plus the $25 packet and you might not even be able to march.

What bothers me more and the catalyst of this is someone was mentioning in a post how to get a high school teaching job, many programs are wanting people who marched DCI in his state.

As for high schools, it trickles down. I work with a program that does BOA Grand Nationals , all the prop stuff, but don’t require marching band and they have concert band all year long—marching does have a fee and is all after school.

I would rather see a program that makes the finals that uses no props, none of the fancy stuff outside of guard uniforms and flags and just effective drill that tells a visual story. But, I guess to win, you have to keep up with the Jones’

[Schlitzz]

I would counsel students to look at an Army National Guard Band, or a straight up enlistment on active duty. Get the parades done, knock out some college classes, math, English, Geology minor. I did 8 yrs in the Navy bands. GI Bill, got paid housing allowance for Seattle. Just not that hard.

[bloke]

I don't have the patience for teaching, but I'd have a lot more patience for teaching middle school band, a particularly in a district where middle school band directors were not considered to be the lackeys of high school band directors, and thus not expected to do the sh!t-work involved in developing a marching band for the high school, while also trying to be the middle school band director.

If middle school band directing paid 8.5X and high school band directing paid 10X (with the conditions outlined just above) the 8.5x choice would be the obvious choice.
The only other problem being the liability of being falsely accused of doing unspeakable things by demonic little kids who didn't end up being "first chair" or whatever.

[Schlitzz]

Bloke, those kids have learned those behaviors from their parents. They should be out mowing grass if they can’t behave.

[bloke]

Bloke, those kids have learned those behaviors from their parents. They should be out mowing grass if they can’t behave.

I don't believe it requires a parent for a human being to figure out how to be evil.

[dsfinley]

Bloke, those kids have learned those behaviors from their parents. They should be out mowing grass if they can’t behave.

I don't believe it requires a parent for a human being to figure out how to be evil.

That’s definitely true, but the lack of accountability at home for their actions doesn’t help.

[catgrowlB]

Do members of DCI buy their horns, or do they rent them? I've seen some for sale on various sites after being used for a season or two. Oftentimes, the contras/marching tubas bells have been creased and need to be smoothed out

[gocsick]

The corps own the instruments. For the world class corps the used instrument sale is actually quite a moneymaker for them. They get the instruments at well below cost from Yamaha.. use then for 1 or 2 sessions then seek then at a premium used price .. often for more than they paid new. For example the Bluecoats are taking pre-orders for the marching contras they will use this coming season for $5,500 ($9,500 list new) or $2400 for a marching baritone.

Open and all ages corps usually keep instruments for a long time and often buy the hand me downs from the top corps.

You can still do DCI on the cheap.. if you are willing to march a lower tier corps. Columbus Saints tuition this coming season is $800 plus a $30 free each for 2 camps.. plus a $200 fundraising minimum.

[Grumpikins]

In 2000, I started marching a division 3 corps out of a nearby city. The cost to me was minimal. We did fundraising, hosted a home show and sold program advertising. Our staff was minimal, all music teachers who marched division 1 corps for multiple seasons. The instruction was fantastic. We were not taught to blast, we were strictly taught to perform with excellent musicianship and to always carry ourselves in a professional manner.

2001 I auditioned at a division 2 corps and after a couple of camps found it to be a complete lackluster, sloppy outfit.

I then auditioned for boston crusaders ( an 8 hr drive one way ), was offered a spot. They gave me the schedule, training packet, and contract to look over. I dont remember what the fee was, but it was pretty high. What struck me was that there was no fundraising on the members side. The thing about crusaders was that the majority of staff ( and members) were based in Florida. There were camps scheduled every weekend, members had to make 3 camps a month. The camps were split between Florida and boston. (As best as I can remember) So I would have to fly to and from florida at least once a month and most likely to boston 2x. And not flunk out of college..... I decided that was just too much. It would only work If I was working part time, not going to college. Then I could have moved to one of those cities. At that time I decided school was more important to me.

But yes, the cost is astronomical. The logistics of transportation of people, equipment, feeding must be insane. Good luck keeping that going. I think that in order to continue there will need to be a shrinkage and regionalization. In stead of world championship, multiple divisional expositions.

Wasn't drum corps originally small local groups formed to provide summertime educational activity for kids and musical performances via parades and festivals. Akin to babe ruth / city rec baseball leagues.