The MW 2141 Eb

[gocsick]

The Willson 3400 FA-5 is my dream instrument. Unfortunately it is very much out of the picture financially right now with one kid starting college and another fast on their heels. Maybe for my 60th birthday or something..

My Holton 3+1 Frankentuba fits me well and sounds great... if you are willing to accept the intonation shortcomings from a pre-WWI American Eb that has been monkeyed with countless times over the last 100 years... without lipping Eb below the staff is about 25 cents flat and Eb in is about 25 cents sharp. Both Bbs are better 1+3 and C below the staff is about 40 cents flat (but still lippable) with 1+2 but spot on but stuffy with 4+1+3. A deep narrow cup helps tame the intonation issues a bit...it has a receiver in-between tuba and large shank trombone and Blake sold me a old Holton Collegiate mouthpiece that is somewhere between a very small tuba or huge bass trombone mouthpiece that fits it well.

[Sousaswag]

That sounds about right - pitch tendencies of the OLD 2141 are remarkably similar to what you describe with your Holton.

I do wonder if an almost complete rebuild on those old tubas would fix some of the flat pitches - Hidden leaks on a 100 year old tuba wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.

I remember over the summer playing Chris Hite’s rocking 3400 FA-5. Those Willsons sure are great, and I think you can pretty much play whatever you want on these 5v non-comps with much more success than a comparable F tuba.

I’m going to record some stuff at orchestra rehearsal tonight, and also a sound comparison between this 2141 and the Willson 3200RZ-5. Should be interesting.

[1 Ton Tommy]

I have to agree about the Willson Eb. The one I bought in June has spot-on intonation. I can set the slides and forget about it unless the temperature changes. The open partials are all in tune with each other. It "slots" tightly though so I have to set the slides carefully. Most other horns I can lip up or down nearly a quarter tone, including my LA Benge trumpet.

It's a big-bore horn and I can hit that low F more easily than on my BBb Mammoth. The big bore means big valves with the buttons spread a long way apart. Good thing I have big hands but getting in and out of the 2-4 combination is hard sometimes. Makes me wish for the old 3+1. This Eb has good resonance in the low register and will play above middle C but still doesn't sound like a bass trombone.

I have played Eb horns for decades and find this one especially versatile. Though there is just something about the resonance of my old Martin Eb that's missing with the Willson Eb. The martin has a more focused sound up high but the valves are so loose that intonation is very difficult and I've been scolded. The 5/8" bore Martin Eb doesn't have the bottom end of the ~3/4" Willson Eb. So, now I'm playing the new Willson for the lower base bone and tuba parts and Bb trumpet an octave up for the high bass bone parts. Neither Eb gets that job done on the Halleluja Chorus. Maybe Santa will bring me a Bass bone for Christmas.

[thedancingsousa]

I remember reading once that MW based the 2250 F tuba on one of their Eb models. Looking at the pictures of the 2141 here, would this be the one they used as the foundation, I wonder?

[Sousaswag]

I’m almost certain that’s what they did.

[Sousaswag]

As promised, I recorded some stuff. I’m pretty happy with how this Balmages piece sounded. Missing some key parts but oh well.

Just me. The other tuba player didn’t show. I did bring my big CC with as well, but truthfully I didn’t really need it. I had it more as a security blanket because I and the band know it well.

What I love about this tuba is how easy it is to play. Now, did I play everything perfectly? Nope. I left my 4th slide way too far out and some pitch things aren’t right on, but overall, man, am I stoked with this little instrument.

Response in all registers is amazing. Pitch is really good and gets better the more I play it.

Something else I didn’t think would be so nice? How light this freaking thing is. My CC is so big and heavy that it’s a chore to get in and out of vehicles, doors, and to just lift into your lap. This Eb? Totally easy.

All I got were compliments from the low brass and French horn sections (whom I sit by). I asked other people if they even knew I switched tubas on some pieces of music, and nobody really knew. I think that’s the best compliment I can get.

[
Enjoy.

[Sousaswag]

Update 11/22:

Took the horn to Keith Polito today. Mostly because I wanted him to try it out. We hung out, fixed some stuff, messed with it, and discussed future plans.

In a nutshell...

He got most of the reachable dents in the bell and bottom bow with a rod and big ol' dent balls. The bell had a lot of (what I consider to be) dumb damage to it - Mouthpiece drops, a crease from someone's foot or music stand, etc. Most of them came out well enough, but another once over will be good for it.

The bottom bow had a big one that happened to be reachable, and the fourth slide knuckle had a deep one too. That one was why I brought it over to him. That and the noisy 5th rotor linkage.

Before and after -

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Before

[
After

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Bell/Bow before

[
Bell/Bow after

I was also concerned about the dreaded pink spots we sometimes see on older tubas. It's confirmed - red rot. Damn. The leadpipe has 3 really tiny spots, and the first, second, and third slide crooks have a few spots as well. Really minor, but when I take it in for a cleaning we'll keep an eye on those spots. I'll probably replace the crooks eventually if those spots open up. The leadpipe? He could do it, but I'll probably opt for patching of those (tiny) spots if/when they open up. Who knows. Maybe I'll ask him to make a new pipe for it.

I also ordered a thumb ring from Voigt for it. Hopefully it's the entire ring assembly and not just the ring itself... We'll find out. When I leave my 2165 with Keith, he's going to take some measurements of the Baer linkage so he can duplicate it for these 21xx tubas to fix the dumb hand position you need to use, which will also probably mean that I'll need to get another Baer ring from Voigt. Oh well. That's a later problem.

The other thing I'm considering is Martin's valves. Just because. The tuba is already as free blowing as you could want, but I love his valves in my 2165. So lightweight. While I don't *need* them, knowing me, I'll probably order a set after the holidays. Or before. The weight savings alone make them worth it to me.

In other news, the Holton should be rounding the corner to valve section work in the next few weeks. The main body looks like a new tuba. Top and bottom bows and corresponding guards are 100% dent free. The inner wrap will be unsoldered/resoldered, and the bell will get the final touches over the next week or so. We talked over the valve section work and I'm feeling really good about that project. Also considering putting the 2165 rotor onto that Holton. JUST CONSIDERING, don't burn me yet... But it'll just be sitting around... And the bore is really close to, if not the same, as the Holton's main slide...

Aiming for a end of December/January more likely finish date for that one, at which point the 2165 can go in for it's final transformation into a 6450, and then finally the Willson can receive it's new, not mangled parts.

Exciting stuff, guys. I'll certainly keep you posted.

[York-aholic]

Sounds great! It is interesting to read your posts about all the repairs/upgrades. I definitely enjoy them.

Keith must start smiling and rubbing his hands together when you walk in the door... or think 'oh no, I should have locked the door ten minutes ago'

:-)

You've got a pretty nice stable of instruments!

[Sousaswag]

Oh absolutely. Probably a bit of both. I’m just thankful to have someone nearby who’s willing to work on these things and know how they should play, how things should fit, look, etc.

Honestly, I put myself in this position by buying more and more things. I probably should’ve kept the piston Willson F, probably should’ve gotten all the 2165 parts before I sent it in the first time, the Holtons and this Eb just sort of happened.

When all these are done, I’ll really have some winners.

[DanClouse]

This whole thread brings me such a sense or relief. I had one of these horns nigh 20 years ago when they first came out. I think I was having one of my periodic fits about F tubas and why they are so weird and decided that Eb was the way to go. I remember loving the sound and playability of the 2141, but really struggling with the intonation (and the giant gorilla-sized valves). I took it to orchestra rehearsal one night for Dvorak's New World, and promptly put it up for sale based on the experience of trying to get it in tune at low volume.

There aren't many horns that I look back and think, "That could have gone better, I'd like another shot." But that's one of them.

[Sousaswag]

This whole thread brings me such a sense or relief. I had one of these horns nigh 20 years ago when they first came out. I think I was having one of my periodic fits about F tubas and why they are so weird and decided that Eb was the way to go. I remember loving the sound and playability of the 2141, but really struggling with the intonation (and the giant gorilla-sized valves). I took it to orchestra rehearsal one night for Dvorak's New World, and promptly put it up for sale based on the experience of trying to get it in tune at low volume.

There aren't many horns that I look back and think, "That could have gone better, I'd like another shot." But that's one of them.

It’s such a shame. You’re now the 5th or 6th person I’ve heard this experience from since I posted about it. That’s probably why they shelved the model; It was so bad on original release nobody was willing to give them a shot pretty much ever again. I’d wager that’s also why the Pt-22p was released. What I don’t understand is why MW didn’t say anything when they reworked the 2141. It would seem that either they didn’t want to admit their mistake, or didn’t care enough to try and promote it anymore. Regardless, a shame.

As I mentioned, I’ve now owned two. One stinker and this great one. MW really had something good with the better ones… More people should play Eb.

[spirtuba]

I bought my 2141 a couple of years ago used. According to my information this was the tuba Heiko Triebener owned and I believe this is the one the modifications were done to first (for him). I will try to get some pictures from it as soon as I return from my holidays in a few days. It's a great tuba as far as I can tell.

[Sousaswag]

I bought my 2141 a couple of years ago used. According to my information this was the tuba Heiko Triebener owned and I believe this is the one the modifications were done to first (for him). I will try to get some pictures from it as soon as I return from my holidays in a few days. It's a great tuba as far as I can tell.

That would be awesome. It would be really cool to compare them to see what changes or modifications were made. Do you have any idea?

[spirtuba]

Here the fotos of my 2141:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... share_link

I don't know anything about what they did, hopefully these pictures will help to find out. Last foto with its rotary sibling.

[Sousaswag]

So cool that you have both of them.

It's so hard to tell any differences from the photos, other than the leadpipe bend and a longer 3rd slide ferrule... But interesting nonetheless.

Update on my 2141 - I decided to place an order for the slide crooks and the leadpipe because of the red rot. Even if they aren't leaking right now, for peace of mind I just went for it. Not a huge job to replace them, just one other thing to add to the list.

[JRaymo]

The Willson Eb’s are the best tubas they make - period. Their F’s are good, but not that good, and are certainly not as in tune. The smaller of the two 3400 Eb’s is REALLY good, but the big one is no slouch either. The smaller one is just “it.” I’m glad to see them finally coming available new. More people should give them a look not just as a bass tuba, but an all around tuba.

Congrats on the 2141,

I played the original one circa 2000. I found them to be as you described. The PT22 was just new and I tried one of the prototypes. That one played better but it had a spring loaded slide that was sprung to be extended and was pushed in rather than pulled for tuning. I found I had to use it a lot. I am glad they fixed the 2141. I really like the size and design on those.

I ended up with a Willson 3400 and it’s remained my only tuba today. I am jealous or the 345. I did briefly own a Willson 3050 but now if I ever went back to a contra bass it would be a BBb.

[Sousaswag]

Update on this little guy:

I’ve played it on 6 holiday gigs. I did NOT bring it to Tuba Xmas, but originally planned on it. Decided on the bell front.

Anyway, I got all compliments. The people I usually play with around this time gave the best comment possible - “I didn’t know you were playing something different.”

In tune, easy to play, and sounds great. What more could one ask for?

[Sousaswag]

Okay, so, I finally got the MAW valves for this guy.

Love how it plays. Also got it cleaned. Pitch is (still) good. Maybe even a little better now that everything is clean and well aligned.

But… The valves are hanging. We think the casings are oval shaped and I probably need slightly oversized valves to fix that issue.

The tuba is all good, but currently on a vacation until Keith can get ahold of Martin for his expert opinion. I’ll let you know when I hear back and what next steps could or should be…

[kingrob76]

Same problem I had with my MAWs for my Getzen - the casings were slightly out of round. We plated the MAWs, then lapped them in. If it had been worse then the play was to make the casing round by boring them out and plate the valves to build up the thickness but that wasn't necessary.

Martin is the best person to guide you on this journey.

[Sousaswag]

Thanks Rob… I would bet that’s where I’m headed too. It’s probably good in the long run for the tuba anyway.