Some thoughts on downsizing /advice and opinions sought

[arpthark]

I'd like to give some background on my playing situation right now and throw it to the Freak Jury to dissect:

Although I do a lot of buying/play-condition repairs/selling (which you probably know if you follow some of my posts on this website), I still have instruments that I consider "my stable":

- Cerveny Piggy CC
- B&S Symphonie F
- Besson 15" bell 4v compensating Eb
- 1925 York 6/4 3v BBb
- Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphone

These days, I mostly play avocationally, primarily in my local high-caliber community band (Piggy), but also on a few dozen paying gigs a year with klezmer band (Piggy), funk/NOLA brass band stuff/strolling gigs (sousaphone), and quintets/small ensembles (Symphonie or Piggy). I am also occasionally asked to play a solo or something with these groups (Symphonie). I teach lessons as well (Piggy).

As you can see, of the above listed set of tubas, the Besson and York are not really getting any face time lately. They are great instruments, but I realized that since I bought the Besson in December of 2024, I have taken it to one (1) band rehearsal in the past year and one (1) holiday gig in December 2024, shortly after I got it. If I were playing in a British brass band (and I may someday, a few great local options around here), it would be perfect... but I am not. I was able to secure an OEM case and OEM mouthpiece for it, and there it has sat, gathering tarnish on the satin silver.

Likewise with the York: it has sat in its case for most of the time I've had it because it is huge and cumbersome to take out of the house. It is not the easiest tuba to steer! I did use it on a few performances this past summer and it generally got a lot of nice comments.

So, the question I am wondering is, would it make sense to offload some (all?) of my instruments to purchase something more practical for my daily playing realities?

The Pig is the best Piggy I've played, hands down. It has solid intonation from top to bottom and I only have to use alternates for E/Eb in the staff. Second valve kicker tames the 2-4 problem and 1-2-4 low F is perfect. I replaced the leadpipe with a new nickel silver pipe from Cerveny. But I find myself missing the convenience of a fifth valve, and while it's great for klezmer, teaching lessons, and small groups, I find myself wanting something a little bit bigger for other work. The Piggy has a huge bore (.835") but a small bell (15") and is very squat.

The Symphonie is a nice five-valver that has been rehauled, converted to all-right-hand action and repaired by Dillon's, but I don't use it very much, probably not nearly enough to justify the price. But these are highly sought-after for a reason, and it basically plays itself and sounds awesome.

The Besson has some dents and dings, though it has great satin silver plating and 100% valve plating. As stated above, it has only been out of the house once or twice, and needs about an inch trimmed off of the main slide for it to play comfortably up to pitch for me.

The York has some issues that need to be addressed: namely, the first valve circuit is waaaay too long, and the third valve circuit is also a bit long. If these were trimmed back and the first aligned better, it would be great. Open series is very good, so it's just a matter of dialing in 1 and 3 to get the intonation more reasonable. But the sound is great, and it's a friggin' York 6/4 tuba, which don't really come around that often at all. But at the end of the day, it is a 3 valve instrument with 101-year-old pistons that show their wear a bit. It could do with a valve job down the road but works fine with slightly heavier oil.

(The Conn 36K I am definitely going to keep because it has a custom flower-pattern painted bell interior and I bought it for $25!)

I usually practice once a week (and we call it Tuba Tuesday in our house) where I focus on long tones and Arban's fundamentals on a larger tuba. I haven't played the Symphonie since October.

My thought is, I could sell a chunk of this gear and be able to afford a nice (maybe even new) larger CC. I prefer rotors and would go for something like a PT-6 or a Rudi 5/4, or maybe even just a Miraphone 188 if something shows up within my price range. Heck, I could probably just sell everything, buy a nice vintage 186, and call it a day, but I do like some variety.

Am I hanging on to this stuff just because I like it -- is that justifiable? Or because it's rare? A 6/4 sized York BBb isn't going to just walk in the door every day, but is that something that I need to hang on to? The Besson Eb is probably my favorite Eb tuba of all time, and I finally got a good one with perfect valves, but is that something that I need to hang on to if I haven't taken it out of the house or even really out of its case in the past 12 months?

The flip side of the argument is once something is gone, it's gone. I can always make more money/save up. But then, say I do get the larger CC tuba that I've been dreaming about, and suddenly there are five tubas in my house that aren't in process of being fixed or sold, which may cause some spousal pushback.

I'm just stream-of-conscious spitballing here. What does the TFFJ say?

[Sousaswag]

I’m a terrible influence on this situation because I have a bunch of of tubas, and would GLADLY take that York 6/4 off your hands!! If I needed it… Maybe I do…

Are you in any financial hardship because you own them? If not, keep them. That’s my take. Some tubas, like my bell front, just aren’t practical in 95% of daily use cases, and that’s okay. They can’t all be.

But, if you really want that nice CC, no harm in selling stuff. That York would be borderline irreplaceable, so maybe sell off the OTHER stuff first, that’s easier to find.

[anadmai]

If you are willing to sell the one I have spoken about before, please let me know. I'd have to figure how to get the money together.

[Casca Grossa]

I play far less than you these days. Maybe a gig or two per year. I have owned two B&S Symphonies over my college and professional years. I would have no use for them these days, but miss those horns incredibly. I owned a Mirfone 185 briefly that I consider the one that got away. If I had it to do all over again, I would have kept the 185 CC and one of the B&S F's just to make me smile on the rare occassions I get time to practice. I studied with Pat Sheridan for a short time and got to perform and hang out with Sam Pilafian for about a week when he performed with my Air Force Band many ages ago. Both of those guys told me that you should always have a "home" tuba. Not in the sense of one for home practice, but a horn you know and love that you could pick up in any situation and just play it because you know it inside and out. You might find the perfect horn for all situations and it may become your go to for everything, but it sounds like the Piggy and B&S might be your "home" tubas. IMHO...keep those two horns and sell the others if needed to finance your primary gigging tuba. My $0.02 for what it's worth.

[claf]

That's a huge problem I also face.

I have 5 Bb trumpets, not for collection's sake, but to use them.
However, I stopped all regular orchestras I played trumpet. I will still do 1 or 2 2-weeks sessions, but I do not need 5 trumpets of the same key for that.
But I cannot sell my Van Laar, because it is so good and was personally selected for me by Hub.
And I cannot sell my Schagerl James Morrisson, because it's the most versatile instrument I have.
And I cannot sell my Conn 8B, because it was so hard to find.
And I cannot sell my Conn 10B, because it's a Victor model, and that's my eldest son's name.
The Schagerl Gansch Horn will probably go, because it's roughly the same budget as for a used (not-too-expensive) tuba, or at least can greatly contribute to it.

With this, I also own a C trumpet, a flugelhorn, an Eb cornet, 3 Bb cornets an Eb alto horn and 3 trombones (small bore, large bore, bass)...

[Mary Ann]

It really does come down to -- what do you actually play; what would you miss the most and kick yourself for getting rid of; what makes your heart sing just having it.

I'm doing the same with double reeds -- after literally years of trying to find a reed source that works locally, I'm giving up and getting rid of the extras, after a half season of struggling in a concert band. I don't need the money, but I also think fine instruments should not be sitting in a closet. Two that I own are highly desirable and the third is fine but not popular, and I'll keep that one for now, just in case. The others will go to homes that want them and where they will be played.

[arpthark]

Thank you all for the responses so far.

I’m a terrible influence on this situation because I have a bunch of of tubas, and would GLADLY take that York 6/4 off your hands!! If I needed it… Maybe I do…

Are you in any financial hardship because you own them? If not, keep them. That’s my take. Some tubas, like my bell front, just aren’t practical in 95% of daily use cases, and that’s okay. They can’t all be.

But, if you really want that nice CC, no harm in selling stuff. That York would be borderline irreplaceable, so maybe sell off the OTHER stuff first, that’s easier to find.

Thanks. No financial hardship, just the hardship of having a lot of horns sitting around and feeling mildly guilty about it, and also taking up a lot of room in our basement! And the general idea that the money tied up in these tubas could be better spent elsewhere, but I'm not prioritizing tubas over bills or anything like that.

Yeah, the York... I'm waffling about it. I think I will hang on to it for now because of what you say, it really is an irreplaceable instrument. With slightly tighter valves and dialed-in slides it would be a force. Maybe I'll cut it to C? KIDDING!

I play far less than you these days. Maybe a gig or two per year. I have owned two B&S Symphonies over my college and professional years. I would have no use for them these days, but miss those horns incredibly. I owned a Mirfone 185 briefly that I consider the one that got away. If I had it to do all over again, I would have kept the 185 CC and one of the B&S F's just to make me smile on the rare occassions I get time to practice. I studied with Pat Sheridan for a short time and got to perform and hang out with Sam Pilafian for about a week when he performed with my Air Force Band many ages ago. Both of those guys told me that you should always have a "home" tuba. Not in the sense of one for home practice, but a horn you know and love that you could pick up in any situation and just play it because you know it inside and out. You might find the perfect horn for all situations and it may become your go to for everything, but it sounds like the Piggy and B&S might be your "home" tubas. IMHO...keep those two horns and sell the others if needed to finance your primary gigging tuba. My $0.02 for what it's worth.

The Piggy is a keeper for sure. I like this mindset. I'll continue to percolate on it...

[iiipopes]

As I get older, owning instruments only for the "that's neat" or "gee-whiz" factor is less and less appealing to me. I am actually reviewing my instruments and mouthpieces with a critical eye as to what I really will play and which are collecting dust. I am taking a middle approach: some stay, some go. I am not sure divesting of everything and starting from scratch is a good thing.

I suggest you do what I have been doing: taking each one out to a rehearsal and see how it performs. For example, one of my cornets simply did not blend with the university community band section, and so I set it aside. I have a couple others that have not been out of their case in years, and probably never will again. Another Eb tuba simply did not hold up as well as expected, and it got sold at a Tuba Christmas last December. They are going to go, if they haven't already.

Likewise with mouthpieces. I have too many paperweights on my shelf, both upper brass and lower brass, that suffer the same fate. For example, with my fall, upper brass mouthpieces with a Bach 3 cup i.d. no longer fit me. I have transitioned to mouthpieces with a Bach 6 cup i.d. So several of them, as well as the other items discussed, will be going later this year.

So, before any new acquisition is made, start with the critical analysis of what is currently owned, and determine if there is a reasonable chance it may be played at any point going forward, and if not, start with incremental liquidation.

Keeping the Piggy is probably a good call, since it can be played in a variety of ensembles, repertoire, etc.

[prodigal]

I've gone from 0 this time last year to two in the basement, one on the way, and hopefully another for the boys.

My old 186CC ain't goin' nowhere except in my hands. Love the sound.

The Cerveny Piglet's future is questionable. It's not bad, just a little small for my liking. Hence why there will be a new horn in the arsenal soon. (Story to come when she gets here.)

There is a tiny Jupiter in the basement on loan for my sons. They'll grow out of it, then into something proper, German, and rotary.

I'm going through the same thing with my pieces. I only need a couple, and I go through the safe and say, "Do I really enjoy having you?" If not, off to make someone else happy. One observation, German tubas sell a LOT easier in the US than Austrian firearms.

[Charlie C Chowder]

Do you love playing her when it is just you and her alone? Does she make you feel better when you finish? Multiple human lovers are frown upon where I live. But Multiple Musical toys are cheaper, easier to maintain and do not get jealous, or at least can't kill you. If you love playing her. Keep her.

I just put out way to much money on a 100 plus year old Baronet alto sax. She was a closet sax for most of her life. She is now the most visually beautiful sax I own. Physically perfect. But I just played her and she does not respond well. I grow tired of playing way to fast. Not satisfying.

She I would let go.

Keep the ones you love. The others are just tools.

CCC

PS I will try to find a mouthpiece that will let her sing freely.

[anadmai]

Multiple human lovers are frown upon where I live.

I take it Poly people don't exist in your neck of the woods?

[Bassboner]

I have kind of the same problem you have, but with trombones. I have too many trombones. I have trombones I don't play. There still might be other instruments I'd like to have. But I have some criteria for keeping/selling horns:

- does it have overlapping purposes/use with another horn that I like better?
- is it the best of its kind that I've used even if I don't have a use for it?
- am I going to regret getting rid of it for sentimental reasons?
- is it a horn that I'm really just never going to use?

I tend to group horns into bore size categories, which translates to use cases for each type of horn.

- sub 500 bore (currently have none, but a 24h or Bach 6 NY would go in here)
- 500/508 (Getzen 3508)
- 525 (Benge 175)
- 547 (88h and 8h)
- bass (Duo Gravis and modern Conn 62h - the DG is going to the shop and when it returns the 62h will be sold)
- valved (Olds 021 flugabone, Wessex Festivo and Olds 099)

In the last 15 years I've bought/sold dozens of horns, and there have been a few that I've regretted selling. But I keep what I consider to be the best players for each size category. If you'll get more enjoyment out of the new than the old (and like me, if you have a set pot of "play money" for your exploits), sell the old and move on. If you have unlimited funds, there is never any harm in keeping a horn.

[aarongsmith]

I have 3 tubas and it's almost a goldilocks situation. I'm teaching a few students that are getting into the more typical solo rep and my muscle memory for F tuba is winning the battle against my compressed practice schedule. It's been a huge challenge to relearn something like the Vaughn Williams on Eb after spending so much time on an F.

I would add an F next after this new Eb, but it's low on my priority list unless the right thing at the right price comes along. However, I would do the same if the right euphonium came along since I am teaching so many euphonium lessons now. My parts graveyard Besson is fine, but it's old and the valves are almost due for some work that I don't think I can justify.

My thought is, I could sell a chunk of this gear and be able to afford a nice (maybe even new) larger CC. I prefer rotors and would go for something like a PT-6 or a Rudi 5/4, or maybe even just a Miraphone 188 if something shows up within my price range. Heck, I could probably just sell everything, buy a nice vintage 186, and call it a day, but I do like some variety.

Am I hanging on to this stuff just because I like it -- is that justifiable? Or because it's rare? A 6/4 sized York BBb isn't going to just walk in the door every day, but is that something that I need to hang on to? The Besson Eb is probably my favorite Eb tuba of all time, and I finally got a good one with perfect valves, but is that something that I need to hang on to if I haven't taken it out of the house or even really out of its case in the past 12 months?

The flip side of the argument is once something is gone, it's gone. I can always make more money/save up. But then, say I do get the larger CC tuba that I've been dreaming about, and suddenly there are five tubas in my house that aren't in process of being fixed or sold, which may cause some spousal pushback.

Every time I have been without a 4/4 contrabass I have found gigging inconvenient. I love having an Eb, but a smaller contrabass is hard to beat for some things. That being said having a very easy to use "big tuba" of the 5/4+ category is valuable too.

If it were me, I would pick the key of bass tuba you like the most, and use the most, to play rather than getting tied up in rarity. Those aren't quite proverbial "hen's teeth" rare, but it sounds like you definitely like one over the other. I would consider the same for your contrabass conundrum, but it sounds like your piggy fits the usable smaller contrabass slot well. The York is certainly more in the "hen's teeth" category, but it sounds like a difficult horn to justify/ use.

That being said if you slimmed down the two that seem to be getting used the least, then you've got a nice budget for a bigger CC and then some.

[tubanh84]

If we are just treating this as a math problem, from your description, it would make the most sense to sell the Piggy and the York and get a bigger CC or BBb tuba as your "big" horn. That way you have the bass tuba, a medium sized tuba for small gigs (Eb), and a bigger horns for bigger settings. And a sousa in case they forget to bring you a chair for a gig. :) I've never played a British Eb, but the guys across the pond seem to be able to use them for a lot of things, and Lance Nagels in Quebec always sounded great on his. (Sidenote: he paired his Eb with a Rudy 5/4...).

Having said that, I can't imagine being in possession of a York and not keeping it. Because really this isn't a math problem. It's the same reason I still have my 184. I don't gig with it. But I love playing it, and I love that I have it.

If you are constantly frustrated that your tools aren't up to the task, presumptively get rid of the tools that are frustrating you first without getting rid of anything that would cause you a lot of angst. And if there are horns you are confident you won't miss, get rid of those. Then see where you are.

One tactic I've used in different settings is to pack up the things you don't want and put them in storage for 6 months or so. If you never miss them, you can get rid of them without worry. So if you don't ever use the York and the Besson, pack them up and see how bad you miss them.

If I'm in your position, I keep the B&S Symphonie no question. Those are gold. I'd keep the York and slowly get the work done on it. Because, as you said...it's a frigging 6/4 York. Even if you just play etudes on it in the house, your own personal joy is worth it. And then try to turn the Piggy and Besson into a bigger gig-level horn.

[kingrob76]

I look at my knife block and see several knives, all unique, all with a purpose they excel at. Yes, they all cut, but, some are better for some jobs than others. I try to avoid having knives that excel at the exact same thing as each other and have similar properties.

I have several bowling balls because when I bowled in a league I found the conditions of the lanes would vary from house to house and night to night, and I wanted to be able to do my best no matter the situation.

The tubas, if one or more of them is redundant and can be easily replaced by another instrument you own then I would probably look to consolidate them. If there was NEVER going to be a chance to use one, I would probably sell it unless it had some other inherent value.

Do what makes you happy, and change things up if it doesn't.

[bloke]

None of us live inside of your life nor inside of your head nor inside of your emotions.

If you really are determined to get rid of some of the stuff, I might look at the E flat and the F and pick one.

I believe you you know how I feel about C tubas, these days.
As far as various makes of piggies (including the Miraphone 91 B-flat and the St Petersburg B flat) are concerned, all of those short of stature combined with giant bore tubas are fun to play (all that movement of air, and that sound right next to your head coming out the short small bell), but they never sound very good (to me) when someone else is playing one of them.

If you sold that, the necessarily long first and third circuits on the York could be addressed by having our mutual friend in upstate New York build you a nice German parts four piston or four piston plus rotor York style front action valve set for it. Once that tuba had been upgraded to that level, you wouldn't miss the Piggy.
... I'm assuming that you value playing characteristics and overall accessibility over oem. Of course, you could store the oem York valve section in a box under your bed, and you could even glass bead blast and silver plate the new valve section after our friend fits it to your instrument, and then do the final installation yourself after it's plated to match the rest of the instrument. OTOH, that same person might trade you one already set up like that for yours along with some additional funds from you, so no waiting.

sousaphone?
I keep thinking I need a sousaphone, but every time I get myself one that I think is just the one I want, I end up selling it. Is there a school within a few miles of your home that would loan you one whenever you needed one, and maybe even during marching season (as perhaps they have an emergency fiberglass way up on an old dusty shelf that they never use because - you know - fiberglass just doesn't sound good).

You've eKnown me long enough to know that I've had some remarkable (extraordinary?) instruments that - without much pondering - quite abruptly decided to sell, and you've played one or two of them, so you know that they really were extraordinary. They're just instruments. Jay Leno collects cars, a friend of many of ours collects tubas in Ohio. I try to not collect anything. Suddenly, the collection begins to the look like cemetery.

[arpthark]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses to my question. They've all helped tremendously.

After reflecting on the issue today, I am going to take a few weeks to make an effort to play the Besson a bit more and evaluate it and finish doing some repair work on it. I like the idea of having a small (Symphonie), medium (Piggy), large (TBA), and project (York) tuba. Even though it's a great horn, I don't really see a spot for the Besson, especially if I haven't played it in the past year and, as @tubanh84 said, if I haven't missed it in that time frame, it might be okay to get rid of it. Also something my wife said that stuck with me when I sold the awesome Alex 163 in my profile pic: "You can be happy that something exists even though it isn't yours."

Once I offload some of the items that I have for sale or am working on in my shop (Kalison DS, BMB 6/4 CC, etc.), I will certainly have enough cushion to afford a nice large CC tuba without causing any marital disturbance... it's just a matter of finding a good one that I can drive to and purchase. My heart's set on a PT-6, but I'm open to anything. Hopefully I can make it down to the Army Conference here in a couple weeks.

===

@bloke, that is a very fine idea regarding the valvesets and the person to whom you are referring. I have a York Master .750" bore 4v set, but the fourth valve is routed in a sort of entwined fashion that would make simple copy/pasting difficult. It's still attached to the York Master body, but I have no bell, and I've been debating the merits of taking it off to use in projects or trying to find a bell for the thing and selling it.

The proper way to do the York would be to install a new leadpipe, a new 4p/1r valveset, complete de-denting, and get it replated and satinized. But that's a tall order!

[prodigal]

I gotta chime in on the Symphonie, a good Symphonie isn't gold, it's unobtainium. Keep her!

I'm a CC guy, so try a good OLD 186-188 and see if it fills your needs.

[2nd tenor]

I suggest that you let the Eb Besson go to some appreciative Brass Bander, it really doesn’t match your particular needs and style of play but could make someone else happy. Those old small bell Bessons are nice to play in small groups, but they are also a bit out of favour too: Banders usually choose the more modern instruments with their 19” bells and larger bore.

If you ever do join a Brass Band then a BBb (but using a matching design / style of instrument) might well suit you better and be a nearer match to the CC tubas that you enjoy.

Just some thoughts …

[bloke]

I get the small medium and large thing,
.but American and American-style 6/4 tubes are sort of a hybrid.
They are large, but the three-quarter inch bore is way smaller than the typical bore diameter of a European Kaiser tuba, so those "American" instruments are large yet not the largest (other than the bell flares).

You still might want to revisit my suggestion of using the funding from the sale of one of the bass tubas and the piggy to technically enhance the York.

Assuming that your York tuba offers reasonably good (or very good?) innate tuning, I'd predict that it would fit in anywhere that the piggy would fit in, and I've already posted too many times the video example of easily hearing my B&S Symphonie F over a blaring pipe organ and a symphony orchestra in the finale of Camille Saint-Saen's Organ Symphony

What I'm suggesting is that the York B flat and the B&S F tuba offer far more overlap than you might think, and that the York tuba fits just fine in smaller ensembles with a smaller sound than maybe you imagine it does.