Small guy, big tuba

[marccromme]

I think your biggest blocker is your statement "I don't want to learn new fingerings"

You are restricting yourself unnessecarily here, cause it only takes a fresh mindset and a couple of weeks practise to learn a new transposition, or to learn bass clef in any of the 4 common tuba pitches.

Plus it is a big advantage for your trumpet playing in classical context, the trumpet scores you see there can be written in almost any pitch, even E or A ....

This said, a 5/4 Eb tuba can be a very fine allround tuba. I prefer the 5 valve uncompensated type, make sure you can pull the 4th slide during playing for adjustments in the low range.

Compensated 3+1 works fine as well, but the layout prevents you from pulling the 4th slide, so the lowest combinations get sharp.

Alternatively, jump in, learn the fingerings, and use a 4/4 to 5/4 5 valve C or Bb tuba.

[marccromme]

And yes, I am small too 169 cm high and 64 kg, but have no problems playing 4/4 C and Bb tubas. Efficient sound production and frequent breathing does the trick ....

[claf]

I think your biggest blocker is your statement "I don't want to learn new fingerings"

You are restricting yourself unnessecarily here, cause it only takes a fresh mindset and a couple of weeks practise to learn a new transposition, or to learn bass clef in any of the 4 common tuba pitches.

Plus it is a big advantage for your trumpet playing in classical context, the trumpet scores you see there can be written in almost any pitch, even E or A ....

This said, a 5/4 Eb tuba can be a very fine allround tuba. I prefer the 5 valve uncompensated type, make sure you can pull the 4th slide during playing for adjustments in the low range.

Compensated 3+1 works fine as well, but the layout prevents you from pulling the 4th slide, so the lowest combinations get sharp.

Alternatively, jump in, learn the fingerings, and use a 4/4 to 5/4 5 valve C or Bb tuba.

I agree 100%, but:
- I am already playing transposing fingerings on all my instruments (Bb/C/Eb)
- I also work a lot on slide bones (from no valve to 2 valves)
- I am not a professional musician
- I have 2 young kids

I know that it would help tremendously to learn a different set of fingerings, but since I already use fluently 4 clefs (soprano/alto/tenor/bass) I'm good for 99% of what I have to play.
The remaining 1% is playing F trumpet parts, but it's so rare that I rewrite those parts when I have to play them.

But yes, Bb and C tubas are still in the equation I will try some at some point.

[humBell]

Doesn't hurt to get feed back from those you play with as well.

I have friends who say that the BBb gives a better bedrock of low sound to support a band. And even if it is the same sound, perhaps it's easier to get on the BBb?

Anyway, i think music rewards getting as good as you can with what you have, and when you do switch over, the efforts on getting better on the fringes of what your previous instrument could do will help you use the new one to the fullest.

Actually, i should also ask, how does the transition from trumpet to tuba inform your playing? What is easier or harder betwen the two? I bet you don't have to subdivide quite so much?

[claf]

Doesn't hurt to get feed back from those you play with as well.

Well, I haven't started yet, I will start in a month.
And so far, the bass is held by a bass saxhorn and a euphonium. I guess my small Eb will already be a huge improvement.
But yes, I won't buy a new tuba right away, that was just a prospective question.

Actually, i should also ask, how does the transition from trumpet to tuba inform your playing? What is easier or harder betwen the two? I bet you don't have to subdivide quite so much?

Very good question!
You just triggered a long response from me

A little bit of history first. I started on the trumpet (well, on the cornet) 30 years ago. I also started playing bass guitar 20 years ago (which helped recover my bass clef reading).

One day, at a concert the bass trombone player turned to me and blew a huge pedal F into my face. My reaction was "I wan't to play this instrument". A few years later (7 years ago) I bought a french-made bass trombone directly at the factory (the remnants of the Courtois factory, still held by the Gaudet family).
After that, some orchestra I sometimes play in were in lack of trombone players and asked me to fill in. Of course, playing 1st trombone parts on a bass trombone is a pain, so I had to buy a tenor trombone (well, two actually, a jazz small bore and a legit trigger large bore).

And almost exactly one year ago, I found a cheap Eb tuba and in a moment of despair, I clicked on the "buy" button.

Since then, I also bought an Eb soprano cornet (because Flowerdale) and an Eb alto horn (because the conductor of my symphony orchestra where I'm principal trombone requested to cover some french horn parts to help our lone horn player (I can't transpose F parts to C/Bb, but I can easily transpose them to Eb).

I like a lot to switch during the same rehearsal/concert, but in some cases it's very hard. For example: 2 weeks ago I was playing as principal trumpet for a "New Year" concert ala Wiener Philharmoniker, but since we had no trombone player, I brought my trombone to play the solo in Shostakovich 2nd waltz. I had like 4 measures in 2/4 to put the trumpet on the stand, grab the trombone, unlock the slide and turn a music page before playing the very exposed solo (spoiler alert: it was a complete disaster at the first concert, but ended well for the second one).


Now, to answer your question.

Of course, 20+ years of trumpet helped me when I learn trombone, even though I had to learn the slide.
Learning trombone actually helped me a lot to fix my air on trumpet, which was a total mess (it still is a mess, but a lot better).
Believe it or not, I always had a good low range on trumpet, but playing trombone helped me to improve my trumpet upper register.

When I started the tuba, I already had the fingerings sorted out by the trumpet, and a good part of air management from bass trombone. However, I was surprised (even though it's logical when thinking about it) that the slot between notes in the tuba low range are soooooo far apart. It's probably an illusion, but the same notes on tuba and bass trombone seem further apart on the tuba.

The last two weeks I spent a lot of time practicing the tuba (on Arban), and yesterday at the symphony rehearsal I was surprised by how my trombone high range has opened, is more powerful and more resonant with less effort.

Switching on a moment's notice is hard, and it is something that needs to be practiced, but it only take a few seconds to switch my brain and body to a different instrument.


To be as good on an instrument as another one requires the same amount of practice, and there is no substitute to practice time.
But, I am convinced that working on a different instrument can correct issues and improve your global playing on another instrument.

And anyway, the most important skill is musicianship, which can benefit from playing various roles (melody / harmony / bassline / rhythm).
This reminds me that I also took 2 years of drums lesson at some point. I was about to say I'm an awful drummer, but I don't even consider calling myself a drummer. But it definitely improved my drums awareness, which is a very good thing when playing lead trumpet in a big band.

[sweaty]

Good point about the benefits of playing multiple instruments- it sounds like cross training. There are skills that transfer. I saw that when, as a school band director, I would play different instruments with the kids. It was good for me.

[Nemo]

Good point about the benefits of playing multiple instruments- it sounds like cross training. There are skills that transfer. I saw that when, as a school band director, I would play different instruments with the kids. It was good for me.

I will die on the hill that all brass musicians should at least mess around on other brass instruments to a middle or high school level to inform their own playing and correct the bad habits their own instruments encourage.

Tuba teaches breath, trombone intonation, horn precision, trumpet relaxation, euph agility, etc

[claf]

I was wondering if I'm being suggested only a 3+1 compensating Eb because of the "I don't want to learn new fingerings".
I'm totally fine with working my way to the low range with a non-compensating 5-valver.

[TubaBee]

There is no more versatile tuba than a 19" bell compensating EEb tuba. Whether in a quintet, a brass band, as the sole tuba in a smaller wind orchestra, or in a symphony orchestra, it never sounds out of place. Beautiful, warm tone, easy to play in tune, wide range…
For a period of 15 years, it was the only instrument I had at my disposal, and with few exceptions (Sole tuba, large Symphonic wind orchestra), I never once felt out of place.

The Eb tuba is also very practical when dealing with parts in all kinds of clefs and keys: Eb treble clef, bass clef, transposed bass clef, baritone sax parts, and more.

[claf]

On one side, I'm glad that's the consensus.
On the other hand, I fear it would be too close to my current horn.

But I guess going from 15" to 19" bell, from .650 to .680 (Besson) or .689 (Yamaha) bore and adding a 4th valve is enough to justify it.
And I could keep the small one for the occasional marching local ceremony.

[1 Ton Tommy]

I would not get hung up on keeping the trumpet fingering. That's unnecessarily limiting and you'll have to learn new fingerings anyway.

I've had lots of experience playing a 3+1 Eb tuba and I double on trumpet (or is it the other way round?) For trad jazz gigs I prefer the 3+1 and use the 4th valve in almost every bar. Doing that on my 4V front action Eb makes my fingers tire quickly. That's not a problem in symphony gigs where the front action is fine most of the time. HOWEVER, there are times I mark my music with LH to remind myself to reach around and use my index finger on 4th valve. On some passages that greatly simplifies the fingering.

Speaking of which, the direct translation of trumpet fingering to Eb tuba only works in the key of Eb. For other keys, you're on your own (I'm assuming you're reading bass clef and not transposing from treble clef, which I'm told can be done). That said, there are passages that are so much easier to finger on a Bb tuba that its worth hauling the big horn to rehearsal.

When improvising, I'm by far best on Bb trumpet, C trumpet is harder for me to play by ear and I actually have to learn the parts on the Eb tuba and think about what I'm doing. One would think that improvising on a Bb tuba would be as easy as Bb trumpet but that's not my experience. I think it's because tuba is played in concert pitch and my ear hears a pitch associated with a particular note on a page. So it's like playing C trumpet; I mentally have to transpose one step because of years and years of playing the transposing Bb trumpet. In time I suppose I'll get better at improvising Bb tuba but I may not 't have that many years left.

My old Martin Eb (5/8 in. bore) has served me well and has a 17" bell. It weighs 14 lbs. and has a wonderful sonorous sound. With a shallow mouthpeice it can have a bit of a bark but nothing like my Willson when pushed. The Willson is much better for playing bass trombone parts. The Willson's ~3/4 inch bore has a much better bottom end and I put that to use clear down to low F. The old Martin will do a G if you have time to wait for it. A is much more immediate and C is wonderful, Bb less so. On either horn I hate going through E matural over an over again and that's where the Bb would be much easier. So they all have their advantages and disadvantages. I have no experience with either C or F tubas so can't comment But I have requested the 4th horn to help out on some bass trombone parts where I didn't have enough breath.

[claf]

4 valves won't require new fingerings, I have played 4 valves piccolo trumpet and 3+1 valves compensating euphonium, so maybe a few notes might require some fingerings, but I will be fine for at least 95% of the notes.

So far, I'm reading bass clef concert pitch sheet music as treble clef and add 3 sharps and I'm fine.

And I'm fine on improvising on Bb trumpet and trombone (which I play in concert pitch, not in brass band treble clef Bb style).

I don't understand what you mean by that:

Speaking of which, the direct translation of trumpet fingering to Eb tuba only works in the key of Eb. For other keys, you're on your own

[humBell]

Thanks for the response to my open ended question. Sorry for being slow on my end (i've started a few times now and been distracted)

I came from a string bass background to play for a concert band that put up with a long shallow learning curve, mitigated somewhat by string bass parts in much of concert band literature to play instead.

Not sure how much that has informed my playing... I'll get back as i do figure it out.

PS. Folk argue between 19" (17"?) and 15", but one of the first 3+1 comps ever played was an old boosey & co guards model with a bell less than a foot across (so narrow you couldn't rest it on the bell) That tuba sings!

[claf]

There is no more versatile tuba than a 19" bell compensating EEb tuba. Whether in a quintet, a brass band, as the sole tuba in a smaller wind orchestra, or in a symphony orchestra, it never sounds out of place. Beautiful, warm tone, easy to play in tune, wide range…
For a period of 15 years, it was the only instrument I had at my disposal, and with few exceptions (Sole tuba, large Symphonic wind orchestra), I never once felt out of place.

The Eb tuba is also very practical when dealing with parts in all kinds of clefs and keys: Eb treble clef, bass clef, transposed bass clef, baritone sax parts, and more.

When I want to try a C tuba, I re-read your comment and it reminds me why I prefered an Eb in the first time

Apart from the accidentals management (or worse, the "non-accidentals reminders"), it is just perfect.

[claf]

Well, I know what I said in the above post, but I kind of flashed on the Melton 3450.
Do you think it could ne a good choice ?
I'll try it some day at the showroom in Paris if it is possible.

[claf]

Or the Kanstul 66S that is currently in Denmark