Sad news

[bloke]

I would love to see the financials of the Eastlake Division...

I just this week repaired (completed the manufacturing of) three of the brand-new most-expensive-French-horn model...

...but I really couldn't "fix"/repair the fit of the slide tubing without tossing it and replacing it...so the consumer (taxpayers) get what they get (leaky slides - seemingly to "compensate" for alignment).

The mouthpipes are now manufactured in the same way as the old budget-line King French horn mouthpipes (solder-on receivers - as if a trumpet) and no flared-to-fit-a-mouthpiece mouthpipe end...and no 4-inch-long reinforcing overpart. This is very fragile. One of them had already been folded...' was difficult to repair...

Well...There at least there are still the Japanese instruments...

yeah...and where do you suppose a very large percentage of those are made...and there are quite a few known-to-be Chinese instruments which are built as well, and (from one family of instruments to the next) with superior-to-Japan-designs playing characteristics.


The most-expensive-model US French horn cases are all pimped out (reminiscent of the old Kustom speaker cabinets)...The cases are WAY heavy (just as were Kustom cabinets).

[catgrowlB]

It would be better if the China talk was a ruse/bargaining chip and they just expand production in NC which I suspect is non-union.

I believe the Monroe, NC facility makes percussion equipment. The Eastlake facility is the one that makes brass instruments. Conn-Selmer's corporate headquarters is in Elkhart, Ind. I have no idea if they make any brass or woodwinds at the Elkhart facility

[arpthark]

It would be better if the China talk was a ruse/bargaining chip and they just expand production in NC which I suspect is non-union.

I believe the Monroe, NC facility makes percussion equipment. The Eastlake facility is the one that makes brass instruments. Conn-Selmer's corporate headquarters is in Elkhart, Ind. I have no idea if they make any brass or woodwinds at the Elkhart facility

I believe Bach is still made in Elkhart (?)

[Schlitzz]

Yep, Bach’s are in Elkhart. They lost some mandrels and tooling to make the 45. The top production guy got fired for that and other things. Might be better to rename the company Holton-Bundy.

[gocsick]

This was a private message sent to me on another forum. From an Eastlake employee

Most guys have spent vast chunks of their lives working with one or two specific horns nearly every day of the week.

When I tell you that this is in no way a work ethic, skill, or talent issue. That this is in no way a way an employee issue. I need you to hear that and understand that, as a musician myself I am sorry.

We have multiple multiple multiple daily arguments about quality nearly every day. Some of us have or have come close to losing their careers over arguments with management and corporate over their lack of adherence to the principles and quality we should uphold. Some, most. Most, end up getting broken down and quit.

Just last week I picked up a 2341 and could feel the vibration of the bell in my fingers. It was wrong. We work with these so often that the second I picked up the frame I felt the same issue you brought up. That was one f several arguments I had that day about quality.

It wears on you man. It really does. Not once have I wanted to stop fighting though. All we’ve ever asked is for the proper material and machines we need. Leave the rest to the skills we have cultivated for generations and let us make you money.

I had a THREE conversations within the past month about why they don’t ramp up 5J production so we can bust out tubas and make everybody money.

I’m sorry. I tried. We tried, we really did.

Edit. Minor deleting to preserve anonymity of person who wrote message.

[bloke]

For a few or several years, "an" American Guitar company opened up a factory in downtown Memphis. I think it might have been on Beale Street... perhaps to make some sort of statement (perhaps much in the same way that billing for Conn remains in Elkhart, Indiana...(simply, the town's association with music).

A friend of mine - who was a good guitarist and owned a vintage Gibson Les Paul - worked there. He was installing frets and some supervisor saw him doing some regulation after he installed them. It was made clear to him that that was not what they did.

He quit.

Just as with those brand names all now under the umbrella of this thing called Conn-Selmer, that guitar company has been sold multiple times to holding companies farther and farther disconnected from music.

[Schlitzz]

I really wouldn’t want these bozos cranking out 5J’s. I have several trombone parents where I’ve explained that buying old Kings, overhauled by R in Wisconsin, are a better deal. Get a Kaces foam case, and start with Kelly mouthpieces. R used to be a builder for the original Greehoe outfit.

If you can’t manufacture horns with decent QA, the ones you’ve spent a 1/3of your life on, I’m not sure they’re even qualified to restring some violas. We always need more ditch diggers.

[Three Valves]

I really wouldn’t want these bozos cranking out 5J’s. I have several trombone parents where I’ve explained that buying old Kings, overhauled by R in Wisconsin, are a better deal. Get a Kaces foam case, and start with Kelly mouthpieces. R used to be a builder for the original Greehoe outfit.

If you can’t manufacture horns with decent QA, the ones you’ve spent a 1/3of your life on, I’m not sure they’re even qualified to restring some violas. We always need more ditch diggers.

Judge Smails seconds….

[DonO.]

This news makes me sad indeed. When I decided to “come back” to the tuba a little over 4 years ago, I chose a King 2341 as my instrument. I have never regretted it. I am not fond of some of the comments I’ve read regarding the quality of my horn. Well, you all are welcome to your opinions. But I have thoroughly enjoyed playing mine. I have had the opportunity to play several other horns since, and I haven’t found anything I like better than my Cleveland Ohio USA union made King 2341. The quality on mine is top notch in my opinion. I haven’t had any problems with it, other than needing a little time to break in the valves, which I was told to expect.

[gocsick]

This news makes me sad indeed. When I decided to “come back” to the tuba a little over 4 years ago, I chose a King 2341 as my instrument. I have never regretted it. I am not fond of some of the comments I’ve read regarding the quality of my horn. Well, you all are welcome to your opinions. But I have thoroughly enjoyed playing mine. I have had the opportunity to play several other horns since, and I haven’t found anything I like better than my Cleveland Ohio USA union made King 2341. The quality on mine is top notch in my opinion. I haven’t had any problems with it, other than needing a little time to break in the valves, which I was told to expect.

My daughter plays a new King 2341 in school and she loves it. It's named Carol. Honestly The few times I've tooted on it it seemed like a pretty good tuba to me.

[Cameron Gates]

Let’s say this move to China happens and all Conn/King sousaphone/tuba/non-pro horns (6D????)/baritone/euph thingies are built there. Are the models going to remain the same? Will a lower mouthpipe for a 20K have the same shape? Will all the tooling be sent there and used? Will new, similar models be crapped out with a new model number?

Don’t think of the children, think about the parts.

I am excited to start seeing better 20K’s and 5J’s come through my school district shop. It seems that it can’t be done here with American labor, why not let the Chinese have a shot at making sure 5J’s bottom bows are properly seated and completely soldered. They might have a better handle on that tricky maneuver than Americans.

[graybach]

I am not fond of some of the comments I’ve read regarding the quality of my horn.

being a private lesson teacher, I have taught students for 25 years who have played on those tubas. The early ones were quite good. Gradually I saw workmanship drop and was constantly let down by each new horn played. At the Army workshop two years ago, I played the Eastman copy. I was quite impressed with it, but the next week I played the same model at TMEA and my wife insisted I buy one, because she could tell how impressed I was. I hadn't played an example of that design that played so well since we visited the Eastlake factory in the late 90's and I got to play the prototype. Conn as a company was passed in QC a long time ago. I'm glad you like yours, but for a horn that is now listing for over 10K, it's not an instrument I recommend to anyone anymore

[dp]

I would love to see the financials of the Eastlake Division...

hmph....no one ever seemed to care about the welfare of US-based manufacture, especially when plumping for merchants distributing loss-leader chinese wares. Concern like that was tacitly, intentionally ignored as folks bought (initially) weird crap. The only reason that supply chain upped its game "quality wise" was because they (meaning stateside and western distributors) wanted to keep in business marking up those inexpensively -acquired far east-supplied wares.
Now, even adjusted for inflation, a Symphonie f knockoff costs the same as what a B&S-made one would if B&S hadn't had to double their prices in order to stay in business And now, even the linkages and hardware when you buy a "german horn" wear out in 2-3 years because the "corporate bean counters" use cheap supply chain-sourced hardware that escaped from some low-protocol wuhan lab.
Don't blame the bean counters or profiteers when you-readily swallowed "pretty good for the price", we've had our share of Barnums and we'll doubtless have more. But at least ask yourself the aging "red pill blue pill" question. That applies even if your buddy sitting next to you understands it or not.

[DonO.]

I am not fond of some of the comments I’ve read regarding the quality of my horn.

being a private lesson teacher, I have taught students for 25 years who have played on those tubas. The early ones were quite good. Gradually I saw workmanship drop and was constantly let down by each new horn played. At the Army workshop two years ago, I played the Eastman copy. I was quite impressed with it, but the next week I played the same model at TMEA and my wife insisted I buy one, because she could tell how impressed I was. I hadn't played an example of that design that played so well since we visited the Eastlake factory in the late 90's and I got to play the prototype. Conn as a company was passed in QC a long time ago. I'm glad you like yours, but for a horn that is now listing for over 10K, it's not an instrument I recommend to anyone anymore

I have a difficult time reconciling all these comments about lack of quality control at Eastlake for apparently many years, and my perceived high quality of the horn I currently play. The only explanation I can think of is that I got a “good one”. I acquired mine a bit over 4 years ago before the big price hikes when the price was in the neighborhood of $7,000-$8000. I bought mine as an “open box” from The Mighty Quinn for $4799. When I got it, it looked brand new. The valves weren’t even broken in yet. “Quinn” told me personally that it was a “Show Horn”. So my theory is, maybe they were extra careful or extra selective with horns that were going to trade shows? IDK. I just know it plays easily and makes me sound great! I get lots of complements on my tone from fellow tuba players. So I’m satisfied. That said, I agree that if I had to pay $10,000 for one, I would probably pass. There are obviously much better choices out there at that price point.

One other point about “quality” though. It is true (and I was not expecting this), these horns do not have their valves lapped and hand fitted. The owner is expected to go through a cleaning process to remove manufacturing debris over several weeks while the valves break in. They provide detailed instructions for this. When compared with other tuba manufacturers who take the time to hand fitted, perhaps this is perceived as poor quality control. But if one follows their instructions as I did, the valves end up just fine.

[bloke]

I see similar issues with both makes.
mediocre slide alignment.
"good enough" piston to casing fit.

I have seen more used 2341 tubas for sale in the under $4,000 range than Eastman. I tend to suspect that it's because more of the King tubas were sold to individuals than Eastman - which I suspect have mostly been sold to schools. Both of them cost more (new) than I would personally judge as prices that individual consumers would be enthusiastically be offering to pay (other than parents who know nothing, are led to believe that their children are sousaphonic musical geniuses, and private studio teachers or band directors have encouraged those parents to buy one or the other of these).

Personally, a very early two-piece upright bell 2341 (in remarkable condition) would be my choice over either of the two compared, but those are certainly not anywhere close to as portable.

With with one being a copy of the other, both of their slide circuit lengths (pertaining to #1 and #3) could stand to be a bit shorter, even though remarkably shortened from the 1240/1241 lengths.
Personally, I would like to be able to push both the #1 and #3 slides in a little further than all the way in per the current design.

Every tuba I've ever owned - regardless of maker - I've had to do a whole bunch of stuff to it to keep it from distracting me while I'm trying to play music.