I never did an Arnold Jacobs pilgrimage.

[bloke]

I spoke to him once very briefly on the telephone - when I was young - with some naive questions about his tuba.
------------------------

Based on videos and recollections, I have have gleaned that these were/are his major messages and mottos:

- Underthinking is infinitely better than overthinking. Understanding what is occurring is important, but dwelling on it is detrimental.

- Actions create sounds, but only paying attention to the actions and not listening to the sounds emitted is not going to be a reliable path to the sound. Mechanics and good habits are only useful in that they lead to resonance and phrasing, which are the goals.

- Ir's supposed to be fun, and it's supposed to be easy. If it's not fun - and it's not easy, something isn't right.

- I never heard him state this out loud (though I have not listened audited every single video that's out there, and perhaps he did say this out loud and perhaps quite a few times...??), but - based on what my aural sense picks up from listening to his playing, I tend to believe that he embraced tactics which present the most effect without having to expend the most effort.
-----------------------

Without getting too specific, does anyone have more concise concepts to add?...or perhaps someone would choose to rebut any of those that I offered forth above. (realizing and embracing the fact that a considerable percentage of his regular and pilgrimage students were not tuba players)

I don't control these threads, but I'd be more interested in philosophical bullet points, rather than long paragraphs about "what happened in lessons", "when I heard him play blah blah piece", and other specific personal experiences.

[russiantuba]

Roger Rocco (his longest studying student)—“Sound Motivates Function”. “It’s just the singing”.

I’ve been reading some Bill Adams stuff on Siever’s website that is very similar to all of that.

[bort2.0]

*My* basic philosophy has always been:

You know what it's supposed to sound like. So just... make it sound like that.

[Misfituba64]

I never studied directly with Arnold Jacobs, but I did study with several of his most successful students who worked with him closely at Northwestern and had regular weekly lessons. In my experience, many people who claim to have “studied with Jacobs” actually only had a few lessons, which is quite different from sustained, long-term study.

The idea of being “Jacobs’ longest-studying student” is often overstated and, in itself, doesn’t necessarily establish credibility. Roger is a master teacher for whom I have enormous respect, regardless of how long anyone studied with Jacobs.

David Fedderly is an excellent example of someone who truly did it all he had an outstanding career and is widely regarded by many in that circle as the closest to Jacobs in both teaching approach and sound concept.

My main point was about simplicity and the use of imagination. I think that idea is sometimes misunderstood and reduced to imagination alone, without the necessary action behind it. Thinking by itself doesn’t make you great doing does. I believe Jacobs assumed that the fundamental work would be done, but he didn’t emphasize that aspect as explicitly as some of the concepts he became most famous for.

Rex Martin is another outstanding example of someone who fully absorbed these ideas and went on to become a remarkable artist and teacher.

[russiantuba]

The idea of being “Jacobs’ longest-studying student” is often overstated and, in itself, doesn’t necessarily establish credibility. Roger is a master teacher for whom I have enormous respect, regardless of how long anyone studied with Jacobs.

I agree with what you said about imagination and the long term study. I frequently say this about Roger because he was told by Jacobs on one of his first lessons that he already had been studying with him just by his playing and knowledge of Jacobs’ playing style.

Several long term Jacobs students such as Rich Watson told me that Roger is the closest one can probably get to actual study with Jacobs. Roger, more importantly, was there and experienced Jacobs’ teaching evolution.

[Misfituba64]

The idea of being “Jacobs’ longest-studying student” is often overstated and, in itself, doesn’t necessarily establish credibility. Roger is a master teacher for whom I have enormous respect, regardless of how long anyone studied with Jacobs.

I agree with what you said about imagination and the long term study. I frequently say this about Roger because he was told by Jacobs on one of his first lessons that he already had been studying with him just by his playing and knowledge of Jacobs’ playing style.

Several long term Jacobs students such as Rich Watson told me that Roger is the closest one can probably get to actual study with Jacobs. Roger, more importantly, was there and experienced Jacobs’ teaching evolution.

Yes Roger did see the “teaching evolution” he started with Jacobs around the late 1960s. 1966 to be exact he was 17 years old around that time. There are a few notable players who studied with him earlier and are still alive who had long term sustained study. Will Scarlett comes to mind and a bunch of others.

[bloke]

I've spoken more times than I could possibly find (via searching this and the previous discussion list) about my recently-deceased friend who some would consider a "natural player" (no music instruction whatsoever until he actually entered the US military school of music prior to being parked at Fort Campbell for one year and then being moved over (extremely strongly encouraged by his superiors to audition, which obviously was the plan all along, when there was to be an opening) to the President's Own Army Band in DC...having auditioned for the Army with a Conn fiberglass 36k sousaphone in the 12th grade).

I believe that friend of mine (who was actually my first de facto teacher - simply from sitting next to him) learned the how to's of musical phrasing and expression via the shaped note hymnals used in his primitive Baptist Church, and the way that the congregation part sang - with no keyboard playing, and a very high level of genuine emotion.

Knowing what type of sound a musical sound is, I don't think he needed someone to teach him the mechanics of making the sound, his ears, his mouth, his lungs, and his throat taught themselves how to make the sound that he knew he needed to be making. Further, he was clever enough to realize that the stuff that he was playing in the school band was a pretty much the equivalent of a accomplished percussionist being assigned to the bass drum, and he spent several hours at home every night (setting aside academic homework, which dictated that he was a B student) playing through whatever he could lay his hands on - materials that he realized was challenging enough whereby he couldn't play it the first time through... Materials he found which necessarily we're more and more challenging as time passed.
(by the 10th or 11th grade: incredible sight reading ability... absolutely incredible...)

Moreover, I believe his exposure - since age zero - to those musical experiences at his (widow) mother's church, his love of that music, and his 7th or 8th grade realization (as sons of widows at that time grew up very fast and began to realize that they were the man of the household) that - once he turned 18 - he would likely be sent off to Vietnam, whereby I believe his 6-year strategy was to play well enough to somehow be recruited to play in (most any) a military band at most any military base, rather than be drafted and sent off to fight with infantrymen in Vietnam.

Circling back to the main topic and the main point I'm making here, I'm pretty sure that his early life foundational experiences taught him the things that Mr Jacobs was striving to convey to his students. ie: It's not the instrument, and it's not even your singing voice. Rather, it's the music.

[Misfituba64]

I've spoken more times than I could possibly find (via searching this and the previous discussion list) about my recently-deceased friend who some would consider a "natural player" (no music instruction whatsoever until he actually entered the US military school of music prior to being parked at Fort Campbell for one year and then being moved over (extremely strongly encouraged by his superiors to audition, which obviously was the plan all along, when there was to be an opening) to the President's Own Army Band in DC...having auditioned for the Army with a Conn fiberglass 36k sousaphone in the 12th grade).

I believe that friend of mine (who was actually my first de facto teacher - simply from sitting next to him) learned the how to's of musical phrasing and expression via the shaped note hymnals used in his primitive Baptist Church, and the way that the congregation part sang - with no keyboard playing, and a very high level of genuine emotion.

Knowing what type of sound a musical sound is, I don't think he needed someone to teach him the mechanics of making the sound, his ears, his mouth, his lungs, and his throat taught themselves how to make the sound that he knew he needed to be making. Further, he was clever enough to realize that the stuff that he was playing in the school band was a pretty much the equivalent of a accomplished percussionist being assigned to the bass drum, and he spent several hours at home every night (setting aside academic homework, which dictated that he was a B student) playing through whatever he could lay his hands on - materials that he realized was challenging enough whereby he couldn't play it the first time through... Materials he found which necessarily we're more and more challenging as time passed.
(by the 10th or 11th grade: incredible sight reading ability... absolutely incredible...)

Moreover, I believe his exposure - since age zero - to those musical experiences at his (widow) mother's church, his love of that music, and his 7th or 8th grade realization (as sons of widows at that time grew up very fast and began to realize that they were the man of the household) that - once he turned 18 - he would likely be sent off to Vietnam, whereby I believe his 6-year strategy was to play well enough to somehow be recruited to play in (most any) a military band at most any military base, rather than be drafted and sent off to fight with infantrymen in Vietnam.

Circling back to the main topic and the main point I'm making here, I'm pretty sure that his early life foundational experiences taught him the things that Mr Jacobs was striving to convey to his students. ie: It's not the instrument, and it's not even your singing voice. Rather, it's the music.

You talk about this friend a lot, but sometimes it has very little to do with formal musical training or even raw technique. Some people simply have an extremely high aptitude for learning. They approach things intuitively almost like solving a puzzle and figure them out through action rather than instruction.

Chester Schmitz is a perfect example. He didn’t come up through traditional tuba pedagogy and didn’t study with a major tuba teacher. In fact, he worked with teachers outside the instrument entirely, including a clarinetist, and still became arguably one of the greatest natural tuba players of all time. He was/is the perfect example of someone who just picked up a tuba and figured it out. Bill Bell is another example.

Arnold Jacobs himself admired Bud Herseth more than almost anyone. In many ways, Jacobs was teaching players to model that ideal, because in his mind Herseth was the finest brass player he had ever encountered.

People also forget that Albert Einstein wasn’t famous when he developed his groundbreaking ideas. He was a patent clerk a government desk worker. That low-profile job gave him the freedom to think independently, outside the public eye, and to develop ideas for his own satisfaction before they ever became theories that changed the world.

My point is this: teachers and great players matter they provide guidance, structure, and inspiration. But ultimately, it’s the action that determines the outcome. That’s where, in my opinion, the Jacobs pedagogy can start to get a little murky especially from those people who tout to teach what he taught.

[bloke]

I don't find anything to criticize that you stated, but I really do believe that his church singing experiences were his "teachers", just as church singing is credited as being the teacher of so many gospel singers.

I'm sure he would have ended up being a fine player either through a traditional path or through his hardshell Baptist church music path, but - having paid attention - the path to which he was exposed worked. I tend to believe that - even more than being intuitive - "paying attention" matters.

One thing that he wasn't was an improviser. None of my high school colleagues really were, other than one or two saxophone players in the (last period of the day) jazz band... and I can't say that either one of those were extraordinary improvisers (but they were only as old as 18 when I last was in high school with them).

[humBell]

It's okay not to have done an Arnold Jacobs pilgrimage. I haven't done an Ed McMichael pilgrimage. (and it's even worse that i haven't because i actually have made it to Seattle since taking up the tuba and hearing his legend.)

[Porky]

I’ve never fully understood the emphasis James often places on the “Jacobs’ longest-studying student” label. Phrases like “sound motivates function” and similar terminology sometimes feel less like practical guidance and more like an attempt to sound profound.

After listening to roughly 30-40 hours of lesson recordings of various players who recorded their lessons, one thing became very clear to me: Jacobs was an extraordinary, freakish talent on the horn. I often felt I learned more simply by hearing him play than by listening to his verbal explanations. His language could be quite flowery, though it seems that his teaching became more streamlined and direct later in his career.

For the sake of accuracy, Bob Tucci actually predated Roger Rocco in studying with Jacobs under the “longest-studying student” idea, though Tucci ultimately moved to Europe. If I’m remembering correctly, their lessons began around 1958 nearly a decade before Roger’s. From what I’ve been told, Jacobs’s teaching during that earlier period was markedly different, with a much stronger emphasis on fundamentals than in his later years. I wish I could have witnessed that phase firsthand, but unfortunately, very few people from that era are still around to speak about it in detail.

[bloke]

Okay,
' any more (CONCISE) bullet point things (like I was asking for in the original post)?
...or should I activate the Tuba Godhh ?

[FrankBKS]

It's not possible to distill all that Arnold Jacobs knew and taught into a single posting. There are good resources out there and are worth investigating. The following comments are based on personal experience.

Jacobs was a master psychologist and communicator. He knew exactly how to communicate in a manner to motivate each student to the desired outcome. He did it in a way that empowered the student and brought out their best.

He knew everything about muscles and anatomy but found ways to elicit physical changes via musical and music-related cues. He used devices to measure results and to give students a visual representation of what they were actually doing i.e. measuring wind (air movement) vs. air pressure. He could get you to do all kinds of things via melodies and etudes with specific interpretive challenges. He could turn #1 in the Arban book into a musical challenge. He guided change in physical habits via musical objectives. He made it all about music.

He tailored everything to the individual. Beyond a few basics, there was no "formula." There's the true story from Dee Stewart about his many lessons with Jacobs where his wife attended and took notes on index cards. People had been after Jacobs to write a book and he never did, but after one lesson Mrs. Stewart handed Jacobs a large stack of index cards and helpfully offered "Here's your book." He kindly answered, "Thank you, but that's Dee's book. It would be different for someone else."

Those who had the privilege of spending time with him received something very rare. His kindness and encouragement were off the charts, and he gave us hope and belief in our own potential. That resulted in more hours in the practice room with a very different set of objectives and standards that he modeled. He helped us to imagine something new and at a level of excellence perhaps not previously understood.

I produced the two Jacobs CDs for Summit Records with the sole objective of, in some small way, preserving his rare gifts. I let his own words tell the story and hope it inspires others to learn more. TubaPeopleTV has many fascinating interviews. Bruce Nelson's book "Also Sprach Arnold Jacobs" is excellent. I hope these comments are helpful. Thanks for reading.

[bloke]

I've had a couple of people tell me stories of him tricking them into thinking about the oddest things right before playing - as one of their main problems was concentrating too much on the physical aspects of playing WHILST playing, and those things distracted them away from those thoughts.

[tubanh84]

Okay,
' any more (CONCISE) bullet point things (like I was asking for in the original post)?
...or should I activate the Tuba Godhh ?

I studied with a long-time student of his. So this is filtered through that student. But a few highlights:

1. You are creating vibration and resonance. You must you air to create vibration to resonate the instrument. Related - brass playing is akin to singing.
2. You must listen to great players to have a fully formed concept of what you want to sound like; otherwise you can't consistently and predictably produce a great sound or great music.
3. Literally everything you play must be musical. Even scales. You are a musician first, and a tuba player second.
4. This one I have a slight disagreement with, but: Focus on playing the music; technique will follow.

[bloke]

I don't have any problem with #4, as long as #2 is followed.

Who knows? There may end up being easier ways to do some things than "The Science".

I'm not really a methods person, but a results person.

In the past, I got some good results with not the best methods, but as time went on, I settled into better methods - as I discovered (knowing of the better methods, not being an incurious person) that they got good results more easily.

[tubanh84]

I don't have any problem with #4, as long as #2 is followed.

My slight disagreement is because I later spent some time with Roger Bobo, and he was very into technical exercises. Working with him through those exercises, my playing got worlds better very quickly. Now, I don't think I would have taken to the exercises as quickly as I did if I didn't have the foundation from the passed-down-wisdom from Arnold Jacobs, but I also don't think my playing would have gotten where it did without the additional influence of Roger.

[bloke]

I don't have any problem with #4, as long as #2 is followed.

My slight disagreement is because I later spent some time with Roger Bobo, and he was very into technical exercises. Working with him through those exercises, my playing got worlds better very quickly. Now, I don't think I would have taken to the exercises as quickly as I did if I didn't have the foundation from the passed-down-wisdom from Arnold Jacobs, but I also don't think my playing would have gotten where it did without the additional influence of Roger.

This is not a "bloke didn't need any guidance to do this/that/the-other response...and/but I tore into difficult exercises (Kopprasch first, Verne Reynolds 48 next - crappy original Cherry Beauregard manuscript version where I had to draw over the stave lines with a Bic pen, the Bach cello suites - xeroxed from the library - whereby I had to make my own phrasing decisions, as nothing but notes, etc...and all of 120 Rochut/trombone Bordogni soprano vocalises - which are as "technical" as most anything, and others, because I understood - as a guitarist - that the "language" of music must be spoken clearly and concisely in order to communicate it, and "good for a tuba player" isn't really that good). Additionally (and realize that I began "studying" the tuba in the early-mid 70's, whereby before I "studied" the guitar...some of these resources (now: widely-known) weren't particularly known to tuba players. I discovered the transcriptions of the Reynolds horn etudes AWAY FROM my teacher's studio (ie. on my own). I've always been "driven" and curious. (Having a Dad who told my much older brother and myself that we weren't ready to or capable of doing this/that/the-other - rather than functioning as being discouraging - simply motivated me to make my own money, buy my own necessities - quietly - even when in my teens - and well... - avoiding and mostly ignoring my father, and concentrating on pushing forward with "whatever"...and - as I've reviewed many times, I surrounded myself with particularly clever and talented peers - who inspired me to do and achieve. When the 186 - that I bought - arrived at my parents' house when I was 17, I was the only one who was not surprised...and same for the 3-year-old Toyota wagon that I showed up with one day - bought with cash.) When in my 30's, I began making road trips and studying with notable others...not any full-time college teachers, but working players of note within a long - or quite long - day's drive (as you did with Mr. Bobo)...though (again) never Mr. Jacobs.

[russiantuba]

I’ve never fully understood the emphasis James often places on the “Jacobs’ longest-studying student” label. Phrases like “sound motivates function” and similar terminology sometimes feel less like practical guidance and more like an attempt to sound profound.

After listening to roughly 30-40 hours of lesson recordings of various players who recorded their lessons, one thing became very clear to me: Jacobs was an extraordinary, freakish talent on the horn. I often felt I learned more simply by hearing him play than by listening to his verbal explanations. His language could be quite flowery, though it seems that his teaching became more streamlined and direct later in his career.

For the sake of accuracy, Bob Tucci actually predated Roger Rocco in studying with Jacobs under the “longest-studying student” idea, though Tucci ultimately moved to Europe. If I’m remembering correctly, their lessons began around 1958 nearly a decade before Roger’s. From what I’ve been told, Jacobs’s teaching during that earlier period was markedly different, with a much stronger emphasis on fundamentals than in his later years. I wish I could have witnessed that phase firsthand, but unfortunately, very few people from that era are still around to speak about it in detail.

The first term is something that several of his closest students told me to entice me to take a lesson. I did--and by this, he continuously studied with Jacobs from when he was in high school and through two degrees, and after, attended all the Chicago-land brass classes, and devoted his teaching to the study, and noted the evolution. Though many studied before Rocco did, in terms of time studied throughout their life, I would confirm Roger is one of the ones who studied the longest but more importantly, reflects his teaching at the end. Many people who claim to be Jacobs students only had a few lessons, but didn't study long-term. I would highly suggest study with Rocco, or Ian Robinson, or Sergio Carolino, all of who teach similar.

This style of teaching is linked to Neurolinguistic Programming. For example, I do not think of my lips or air when I play, or what is physical. I sometimes do teach it to give students something to lean on, but ultimately, "sound motivates function" is the same as "Song creates the Wind"--(basically, if you sing it, the wind (air) will follow). I do all the breathing exercises away from the horn, disassociated with the horn.

Many people play based on "feel", and when I studied with Roger and other Jacobs students, instead of sharpening the mindset and sharpening a "high level of awareness". Ultimately, to quote Roger, "It is just the singing".

This style of teaching and learning isn't for everyone. It is "weird", or as one criticizer put it "voodoo magic". Some believe they have to focus on every single mechanical imput.

Jacobs, like most top teachers, develop their teaching patterns and focus until they quit teaching. Many tubists who studied with Jacobs were also students of a Jacobs student--so as the field progresses and fundamentals got better with dissemnation of knowledge, you work on the next area. My personal goal when teaching is to address what will help the student the most long term. Teaching itself is an art form--one should never stop developing and improving it.

[Porky]

I’ve never fully understood the emphasis James often places on the “Jacobs’ longest-studying student” label. Phrases like “sound motivates function” and similar terminology sometimes feel less like practical guidance and more like an attempt to sound profound.

After listening to roughly 30-40 hours of lesson recordings of various players who recorded their lessons, one thing became very clear to me: Jacobs was an extraordinary, freakish talent on the horn. I often felt I learned more simply by hearing him play than by listening to his verbal explanations. His language could be quite flowery, though it seems that his teaching became more streamlined and direct later in his career.

For the sake of accuracy, Bob Tucci actually predated Roger Rocco in studying with Jacobs under the “longest-studying student” idea, though Tucci ultimately moved to Europe. If I’m remembering correctly, their lessons began around 1958 nearly a decade before Roger’s. From what I’ve been told, Jacobs’s teaching during that earlier period was markedly different, with a much stronger emphasis on fundamentals than in his later years. I wish I could have witnessed that phase firsthand, but unfortunately, very few people from that era are still around to speak about it in detail.

The first term is something that several of his closest students told me to entice me to take a lesson. I did--and by this, he continuously studied with Jacobs from when he was in high school and through two degrees, and after, attended all the Chicago-land brass classes, and devoted his teaching to the study, and noted the evolution. Though many studied before Rocco did, in terms of time studied throughout their life, I would confirm Roger is one of the ones who studied the longest but more importantly, reflects his teaching at the end. Many people who claim to be Jacobs students only had a few lessons, but didn't study long-term. I would highly suggest study with Rocco, or Ian Robinson, or Sergio Carolino, all of who teach similar.

This style of teaching is linked to Neurolinguistic Programming. For example, I do not think of my lips or air when I play, or what is physical. I sometimes do teach it to give students something to lean on, but ultimately, "sound motivates function" is the same as "Song creates the Wind"--(basically, if you sing it, the wind (air) will follow). I do all the breathing exercises away from the horn, disassociated with the horn.

Many people play based on "feel", and when I studied with Roger and other Jacobs students, instead of sharpening the mindset and sharpening a "high level of awareness". Ultimately, to quote Roger, "It is just the singing".

This style of teaching and learning isn't for everyone. It is "weird", or as one criticizer put it "voodoo magic". Some believe they have to focus on every single mechanical imput.

Jacobs, like most top teachers, develop their teaching patterns and focus until they quit teaching. Many tubists who studied with Jacobs were also students of a Jacobs student--so as the field progresses and fundamentals got better with dissemnation of knowledge, you work on the next area. My personal goal when teaching is to address what will help the student the most long term. Teaching itself is an art form--one should never stop developing and improving it.

I appreciate the clarification, and I don’t actually think we’re as far apart as it might appear on first read.

On the “longest-studying student” point: I agree that the distinction isn’t about who showed up first, but about continuity, depth, and engagement over a lifetime. That said, historically speaking, the label often gets used loosely and sometimes imprecisely, which is really where my skepticism comes from. Tucci did begin earlier, Rocco did study longer in total duration, and others fell somewhere in between. The reality is messier than the slogan and slogans tend to invite mythology whether we want them to or not.

As for the language: I understand the intent behind phrases like “sound motivates function” and I don’t doubt their usefulness for certain students. My point was never that the concept is wrong, but that the phrasing can sometimes obscure more than it clarifies especially for players who are still building a concrete technical framework. Jacobs could absolutely afford abstraction because he had an almost freakish baseline of physical coordination. Not everyone does.

The Neurolinguistic Programming connection is interesting, though I’d be cautious there. NLP is a broad umbrella, and much of it is descriptive metaphor rather than empirically validated pedagogy. That doesn’t make it useless music teaching has always relied heavily on imagery and indirect instruction but it does mean we should be careful about presenting it as a defined system rather than a teaching style. “Song creates the wind” works brilliantly for some minds and very poorly for others.

I also agree that Jacobs’ teaching evolved, and that later students were often dealing with a higher baseline of fundamentals simply because the field itself had advanced. That’s not unique to Jacobs it happens with every great pedagogue over time. You teach what’s missing, not what’s fashionable.

Where I think we fully align is this: teaching is an art, not a fixed doctrine. No single approach whether hyper-mechanical or highly abstract works universally. The danger isn’t in “voodoo magic” language or in mechanics; it’s in mistaking any one framework for the framework.

And to quote Roger (since he’s already been invoked): if it really is “just the singing,” then we probably shouldn’t be surprised that people argue so much about how to talk about something that ultimately isn’t verbal at all.