New Wessex 6/4 Rotary

[tubatodd]

On instagram, Jonathan announced a new 6/4 rotary "inspired by" the B&S Neptune.

Screenshot from 2026-01-07 11-56-15.jpg (95.17 KiB) Viewed 2840 times

[Sousaswag]

Hopefully they fixed the intonation quirks the original Neptunes had.

Neptunes weren’t quite 6/4… They were a PT6 with a huge bell flare, maybe a slightly larger bottom bow? 5(ish)/4. They didn’t quite get that 6/4 sound quality.

Jonathan says it’s based on the York bell and bows… interesting. A true 6/4, then.

[arpthark]

Hopefully they fixed the intonation quirks the original Neptunes had.

Neptunes weren’t quite 6/4… They were a PT6 with a huge bell flare, maybe a slightly larger bottom bow? 5(ish)/4. They didn’t quite get that 6/4 sound quality.

Jonathan says it’s based on the York bell and bows… interesting. A true 6/4, then.

I had a Neptune on trial for a week but could not reconcile the octave Cs being ~30¢ apart.

[Sousaswag]

Hopefully they fixed the intonation quirks the original Neptunes had.

Neptunes weren’t quite 6/4… They were a PT6 with a huge bell flare, maybe a slightly larger bottom bow? 5(ish)/4. They didn’t quite get that 6/4 sound quality.

Jonathan says it’s based on the York bell and bows… interesting. A true 6/4, then.

I had a Neptune on trial for a week but could not reconcile the octave Cs being ~30¢ apart.

Which is a real shame, because it filled a void for some players that was never really filled until it came out. Now with the MRP’s existence, I wouldn’t even CONSIDER a Neptune for personal ownership. YMMV, I guess. There’s a tuba for every player.

[catgrowlB]

Neptunes weren’t quite 6/4… They were a PT6 with a huge bell flare, maybe a slightly larger bottom bow? 5(ish)/4. They didn’t quite get that 6/4 sound quality.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the VMI (B&S) Neptune used a MW-2165 bell, and a larger bottom bow, and different mouthpipe than the B&S PT-6. Only the valveset and upper bow was PT-6 on the Neptune. When I tooted on the Neptune when they came out, it definitely looked, felt and sounded noticeably larger than the PT-6 because it is. So I'd say the Neptune is a 6/4

The B&S PT-6 is sort of the example 5/4 tuba to judge sizing I suppose, and it uses a MW-25 bell spun out to about 19", whereas the MW-25 bell is spun out to 17.7" Otherwise, the same bell, same taper, etc. I believe Mike Johnson ? discovered that about the PT-6, and wrote about it on the old board.

[bloke]

Looks nice.
If it's less squirrely than a Neptune, then good for them.
I don't see any way too get the left hand on the #1 slide (??), and it's hard to imagine a tuba like that that doesn't need some #1 slide movement.

[bort2.0]

Neptunes weren’t quite 6/4… They were a PT6 with a huge bell flare, maybe a slightly larger bottom bow? 5(ish)/4. They didn’t quite get that 6/4 sound quality.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the VMI (B&S) Neptune used a MW-2165 bell, and a larger bottom bow, and different mouthpipe than the B&S PT-6. Only the valveset and upper bow was PT-6 on the Neptune. When I tooted on the Neptune when they came out, it definitely looked, felt and sounded noticeably larger than the PT-6 because it is. So I'd say the Neptune is a 6/4

The B&S PT-6 is sort of the example 5/4 tuba to judge sizing I suppose, and it uses a MW-25 bell spun out to about 19", whereas the MW-25 bell is spun out to 17.7" Otherwise, the same bell, same taper, etc. I believe Mike Johnson ? discovered that about the PT-6, and wrote about it on the old board.

The Neptune has a 20.5 inch bell, which at least is a wider flare than the 2165 (right?).

[the elephant]

I don't see any way too get the left hand on the #1 slide (??), and it's hard to imagine a tuba like that that doesn't need some #1 slide movement.

What, are you crazy? None of those horns requires any adjustment by the player. In fact, all slides are soldered neatly in place at the factory.

[bort2.0]

This post includes 3 things that I haven't seen, heard, or thought about in a very long time:
Neptune
Jonathan Hodgetts
Wessex

Nice to see them all again.

[bloke]

I'm remembering now that Jonathan used to own a gold brass Neptune.
I'm remembering correctly, aren't i?

[bort2.0]

I'm remembering now that Jonathan used to own a gold brass Neptune.
I'm remembering correctly, aren't i?

That's correct -- the only gold brass Neptune in existence, which was ordered through Mr Tuba (Mark Carter) and Jonathan visited the factory several times during it's production. A stunning tuba to see.

[bort2.0]

At various times, I've owned these 3 large B&S tubas:

rotary Neptune
piston PT-7
rotary PT-6

The rotary Neptune was effectively just a rotary PT-6 with a larger bell and bottom bow. The Neptune was "designed" by Mel Culbertson, which meant two things:
1) the things that made it different than a PT-6 (besides the bell and bottom bow) were Mel's customizations... some were bling, some were functional (2nd valve slide kicker, leadpipes, etc), and others were for who knows what (hearing the grass grow level changes)
2) once the changes were locked in, that was the Neptune. No additional changes or improvements. So basically, all of the incremental improvements and sub-iterations of the PT-6 over the years were never back-incorporated into the Neptune. Because the Neptune WAS the Neptune. That's part of why it ultimately had a short lifespan... the PT-6 just played better for most people.
FWIW, I liked the Neptune, it played well and was beautiful to look at. But the 20.5" bell was just big for the sake of being big. I don't think it had any benefit (or detriment) and sorta just got in the way. Too big.
With the two leadpipes and the stop pin on the 5th valve, the idea was supposed to be that you could set it up as a BBb tuba and make it sound like a Kaiser tuba if you wanted, or convert it to CC and get that kind of sound from it. Not sure that ever worked out so well in reality.

The piston PT-7 was a heck of a tuba. Same story that it's very much like a PT-6 with some additional changes, and never had enough generations to see incremental improvements. The bell of the PT-7 was apparently built from an ancient kaiser BBb bell mandrel, and the bottom bow (more?) was custom built to cobble it all together. The whole point of the PT-7 was that it was supposed to capture the kaiser BBb tuba sound in a 6/4 piston CC tuba package. The purists didn't like it from either direction -- if you wanted a Kaiser BBb tuba sound, you were better with a Kaiser BBb. And if you wanted a 6/4 CC sound, it wasn't that either. To me, it felt a lot like a large rotary CC tuba, and it put out a TON of sound. I really liked it. Ergonomics were bad for me, which is why I sold it. Too far to reach around the front to the valves.

The PT-6 is very well known, and doesn't need a lot of info from me. Mine was an early handmade model. Loved that tuba, it was incredibly easy to play and a killer low register. Can easily understand why so many professionals use these tubas.

I find it interesting that the MRP tubas were also marketed as being BBb tuba sound in a CC tuba package. I guess that's kind of what it is, but I think it's just a nice tuba.

All that said, having recently played a true large BBb rotary tuba... none of these large B&S tubas even come close to it in terms of the amount and type of sound. The B&S tubas were all excellent and pleasing in their own ways, but if you want a large rotary BBb tuba sound... I think you just have to get yourself a large rotary BBb tuba.

[bloke]

I'm remembering now that Jonathan used to own a gold brass Neptune.
I'm remembering correctly, aren't i?

That's correct -- the only gold brass Neptune in existence, which was ordered through Mr Tuba (Mark Carter) and Jonathan visited the factory several times during it's production. A stunning tuba to see.

They all looked like they were gold brass, but actually that was the color of the lacquer, I guess with all but Jonathan's.

[bloke]

Yeah. B flat is where it's at, but unfortunately B flat requires a lot more accuracy.
I've reviewed my own journey too many times on this site, but moving to B flat a few years ago humbled me quite a bit, and did a really good job of showing me what a pig I was, as opposed to the sort of hot shot I had thought that I was.

The Germans - who sound from really nice to incredibly nice on their B-flat tubas - and you might notice that you rarely hear them playing flashy stuff on them... They deserve a tremendous amount of respect.

When I do a really good job on a Bordogni/Rochut vocalise (even if it's one of the shorter and simpler ones from the first book) playing the 98, I sort of feel pretty proud of myself.

The gentleman who sold me my 98 - though he's probably pretty well off, knowing his primary occupation - he was very nice to me. Even though money was worth a whole bunch more than it is now before the big virus release, he sold it to me for not much more than a new Wessex price, and included the Winter case.He even drove a couple of hours towards me (though he actually had business in the town where we met) so I wouldn't have to drive so far.

I also brought another tuba - a 184 B flat - for a long time distant friend to try out and purchase from me, because he was passing through the same part of the country on the same day (serendipitously). He had just finished playing an F above the staff on the 184 (before I had even made one sound on the 98), and my driving buddy/trombone player (who came with me to listen to me try out the 98) said to me 'let's just hear the F". I assumed he meant the F that he had just heard above the staff (played on the 184 in a room down the hall). I thought that was an odd request, but I played it... It came right out clearly...so that was the first pitch I ever produced on the huge 98 B flat.

[Sousaswag]

My thought is this:

The Neptune was literally as Brett described - a PT6 that they stuck larger parts on, without really messing with the other things that came before those parts. Yeah, leadpipes, we know, BUT, the Neptunes and their inherent intonation weirdness probably comes from the main body taper just being "off" from what it should've been.

Then, the MRP comes out with (basically) the exact same idea as the Neptunes, but B&S did some R&D with them and actually put parts on that worked, and re-worked the inner bows probably with that neato computer software to optimize the MRP into what it is. An EXCELLENT C tuba. Does it make the BBb sound? I don't know. Play a BBb if that's what you want. The MRP is in C... I owned one. I really enjoyed it.

Great info, by the way. I forgot you owned that PT7.

Re: the bell - I don't know. I think the 2165 may be 19" but I'll measure it later. It certainly could be a 2165 bell that they made up with a bigger flare.

[bloke]

To be clear, in this specific response, I'm not talking about Wessex anything... The current side topic is "giant tubas made in the past in the B&S factory".
----------------------

Yes, the bugle taper of the Neptune is definitely different and - because of the specific parts it's made from - has a sudden swell at the end..
But the regular B&S bugle for 6/4 tubas (the one used for 2165, 2265, and 6450) is no walk in the park - as far as playing in tune easily - either.. just different problems.

[bort2.0]

My Neptune had a weird low D. It wasn't "bad", but it wasn't like the rest of the notes around it. 1-3 worked a lot better than 4... so I maybe would have had someone (Matt W or Chuck McAlexander) pull the 4th tubing off and investigate. But I didn't keep the tuba long enough to sort through all of that.

But thinking back to how physically large the Neptune *felt*, it never really had the weight of the Rudy 5/4 that I owned 15 years later.

That said, the Neptune IS a nice tuba, and works quite well for some people.

Steve Campbell (Minn Orch) used a Neptune for years... then moved onto a PT-6... and currently uses an MRP. Maybe I should try to meet him sometime.

[bloke]

My Neptune had a weird low D. It wasn't "bad", but it wasn't like the rest of the notes around it. 1-3 worked a lot better than 4... so I maybe would have had someone (Matt W or Chuck McAlexander) pull the 4th tubing off and investigate. But I didn't keep the tuba long enough to sort through all of that.

But thinking back to how physically large the Neptune *felt*, it never really had the weight of the Rudy 5/4 that I owned 15 years later.

That said, the Neptune IS a nice tuba, and works quite well for some people.

Steve Campbell (Minn Orch) used a Neptune for years... then moved onto a PT-6... and currently uses an MRP. Maybe I should try to meet him sometime.

I would (and do) consider and use 1-3 as the "regular" valve combination and 4 as an "alternate".
This is been true with at least three large contrabass tubas - as well as my F tuba (G pitch).

[the elephant]

On my Alex, I played it like a trumpet, using the 1st slide for 12 and 13 as needed, using the 4th only for 24 notes. Worked great.

[jtm]

... The current side topic is "giant tubas made in the past in the B&S factory".

An old BBb B&S 103 doesn't count as "giant", right? It's just normal size but kinda tall?