Tuba shipping gone wrong

[harrell]

I recently bought a used tuba. The tuba was packed very well, the box labeled thoroughly "fragile," "do not drop," "this end up," etc. Shipped UPS, insured. Pictures attached, including one of the original, undamaged, beautiful bell. When I got the tuba and opened the box, I was devastated to see that the box had been either dropped or crushed. The bell was bashed and crushed. I immediately filed a claim on the insurance, which was insured for the purchase amount of the tuba. After a week and a half of waiting, UPS denied the claim saying that the tuba was insufficiently packed and boxed. While I am furious, I am really not surprised at this at all. Big business ripping the customer off once again and there is not a d@#$ thing I(the customer) can do about it. What is the purpose of insurance on such a thing, if you(UPS) are not going to take care of the customer??? It is obviously the shipper's fault. Disgraceful! I am now going to go fix my crushed bell and hope it doesn't have any cracks or splits in it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZDgTDeQxUsRT8Kfd8

Jason Harrell
Angry UPS Customer

[the elephant]

No one here takes my warnings about UPS seriously. If it has not happened to them, then it is not a *real* problem. UPS has become a bit of a disaster if you want to ship a tuba.

[bloke]

It probably doesn't cost that much to file a small claims lawsuit and represent yourself.
If you file, they may send one of their lawyers or they might settle.
Many judges don't like big corporations ripping off the little guy.

I sued an HVAC company, represented myself, and won...

Wade and I have posted - over-and-over about getting into the car and driving to the tuba.
It's trouble, but less trouble than your unfortunate experience.

edit...
Wow...Wade and I responded nearly simultaneously.

Wade can repair your bell.
That having been said...
If he's too busy, I'm willing.
Likely, Wade doesn't charge NYC prices, and neither do I.

[harrell]

And not ONCE did I have any interaction with an actual human being in this whole process! They didn't even provide a phone number for contact.

[bloke]

I suspect that they stacked something on top of it...such as a safe.

[harrell]

Thanks for the advice. It may be worth talking to a lawyer. I do know a guy.

I have my own repair shop. My plan is to take the bell off and use the Z-60. I also plan to vent one or more of the valves, maybe shorten the fourth valve slide tubing, as it plays flat, and lengthen the main tuning slide because it has to be pulled nearly all the way out.

Jason

[tadawson]

I would have loved to have seen a shot of it in the box . . . . It's hard to sell how much packing/space there was between the bell and the carton (but I get the perception of not that much from the pics . . .).

One thing that can be done is have the carrier pack the item. They may do a worse job than you may have, but at least they can't deny liabiity . . .

[bloke]

The air-filled ball (I cannot tell for certain, but) doesn't seem large enough to prevent the rim of the tuba from making contact with the top of the carton.

[arpthark]

Here’s my controversial opinion about tuba shipping: “Beach ball in the bell” does not work. It deflates during shipping and it’s never firm enough to absorb much impact. I’ve been burned twice as a seller using that method recently after reading something about it and giving it a go, and was burned once on the other end having received a shipment from Europe with a beach ball in the crushed bell. Previously to that, and now moving forward, a big, stiff cardboard/styrofoam and bubble wrap cone that goes deep into the bell and sticks several inches out of the bell dissipate shock is the way to go… in my experience, having shipped a few dozen tubas over the years. I’ve only ever had problems when I did the beach ball method as described above or used a too-small box with not enough room for adequate padding.

[harrell]

I do not disagree. However, I did not do the packing. I am just the receiver of the horn. BUT, even with all that said, the point of having the insurance, is to get reimbursed for such damage as did occur. IMHO

[arpthark]

I do not disagree. However, I did not do the packing. I am just the receiver of the horn. BUT, even with all that said, the point of having the insurance, is to get reimbursed for such damage as did occur. IMHO

Yes, sorry to derail your thread. Shipping can be such a crapshoot. I am sorry this happened and that the insurance ended up being useless.

[bloke]

Here’s my controversial opinion about tuba shipping: “Beach ball in the bell” does not work. It deflates during shipping and it’s never firm enough to absorb much impact. I’ve been burned twice as a seller using that method recently after reading something about it and giving it a go, and was burned once on the other end having received a shipment from Europe with a beach ball in the crushed bell. Previously to that, and now moving forward, a big, stiff cardboard/styrofoam and bubble wrap cone that goes deep into the bell and sticks several inches out of the bell dissipate shock is the way to go… in my experience, having shipped a few dozen tubas over the years. I’ve only ever had problems when I did the beach ball method as described above or used a too-small box with not enough room for adequate padding.

I buy those inflatable "play balls" (bright/multi-colored/inflatable/the size of soccer balls) OR...

...I make a bunch of the large-bubble bubble-wrap into an appropriately-sized sphere.

"insurance" is b.s. Drive to play-test and buy a tuba.

[tadawson]

I do not disagree. However, I did not do the packing. I am just the receiver of the horn. BUT, even with all that said, the point of having the insurance, is to get reimbursed for such damage as did occur. IMHO

Yes, sorry to derail your thread. Shipping can be such a crapshoot. I am sorry this happened and that the insurance ended up being useless.

If not the shipper, then the seller should be liable, since they did the (apparently) less than adequate packing job, as well as (likely) choosing the carrier.

The buyer should never be the one who is hurt on stuff like this.

[tubatodd]

First of all, I'm sorry your tuba turned out that way.

My first thought after seeing the pictures is "duh!" That is appears to be some of the worst tuba packaging I have ever seen.....maybe second to some experimental packaging I did my freshman year of college.

When I've had tubas shipped it was a rubber basketball in the bell (the kind you'd actually dribble), Horn wrapped in bubble wrap, then in a case or bag. That bag or chase was bubble wrapped. Then put in a foam filled box. THEN that box was put into another larger foam filled box. Always double boxed.

My guess is that a) shipping is expensive and people will use the minimum they can get away with for supplies and b) It may STILL not matter. It will get damaged.

My first ever new tuba was a Cerveny dropped shipped from the Czech Republic. It arrived in a straw filled crate (just like the leg lamp) and was delivered by freight.

[arpthark]

Yes to sturdy rubber basketball/kickball type things. I have done that a few times with success.

[Sousaswag]

Ouch. Sorry that happened. That right there is why I simply refuse to ship an instrument.

To be honest with you, I’d fight it, either with the seller or with UPS. It doesn’t appear to have been packed well enough, but UPS also likely grossly mishandled it like they do everything else that they get their grubby mitts on.

Hopefully the bell turns out okay. If not, maybe you have an opportunity to put a cool old bell on it or something.

[Lee Stofer]

Some years ago now, I shipped a new Kanstul tuba via UPS to North Dakota. The bell was crunched. UPS denied any sort of claim, claiming that it was not sufficiently packed. I spoke to the local UPS Field Representative, who came to my shop, and I showed him in person how I pack tubas. He told me that it all looked good, but - all shipments that go by brown truck go through terminals, where they are run on overhead conveyor belts. He said, "Anything shipped by UPS needs to be packed sufficiently to survive falling a minimum of 12 feet off a converyor belt onto a concrete floor." I replied that I'd have to pack a tuba in packaging half the size of a railroad car to be able to insure safety in that sort of environment, and that's when we agreed that I would never ship a tuba by UPS again.

I shipped a lot by Greyhound/Trailways, until that service disappeared during the Plague of 2020. Amtrak no longer ships, either.

FedEx cannot promise any better results. I spend a lot of time and resources packing tubas when I have to ship them, and they go by a motor freight carrier with a sterling reputation, Old Dominion Freight. More recently, I have been arranging to drive and meet people, or having them come to the shop.

[gocsick]

Back in 2010 I had a 3/4 Weril CC shipped from Baltimore Brass to New Mexico... I remember grumbling about the shipping cost but color me surprised when it arrived freight... in a refrigerator sized box with about 3 huge rolls of bubble wrap, strapped to a pallet with enough shrink wrap you could hardly see the carton underneath....

When the instruments went into the moving truck to come to Ohio they were carrier packed into wardrobe boxes with a ton of padding and high value stickers... The carrier also insisted that the were insured for the replacement value not my purchase price... I don't know what that cost as the University was billed directly for the moving costs.

[donn]

I don't have any empirical evidence for or against the beach ball, but obviously, it depends.

• The ball must have some air in it when the impact happens.
• the ball must be the right size - big enough to absorb all the impact, with the air it has, while small enough that it transfers that load to the inside of the bell, not the bell flare.
• the impact can only be towards the bell throat. (A ball inside the bell can't protect it from a sideways impact.)

To me, the ball in the picture doesn't look like it's nearly big enough.

Depending on bell size, another item that can be used here is a full roll of paper towels, inserted on the bell axis. It isn't quite as theoretically ideal, but as long as roll protrudes a half foot or so and the impact is square on, I think it's just as good. So only for tubas of modest bell size. As I believe pointed out by a highly esteemed member we don't hear from often any more, everyone can use paper towels, so it's a no-waste packing material that provides pretty good padding.

[tofu]

That’s a real shame. It’s insane that UPS/FedX offer insurance, but seem to rarely pay off. It seems they get to be judge and jury to decide whether to pay you or just keep (steal) your money as additional profit. It really should be an independent adjudicator who decides.

Having said that and without a complete look at the packing - that really does not seem packed well enough to survive the conveyor belts of UPS’s - but the average customer has no idea the wild ride their package has once it’s in their system - so it’s unrealistic for UPS to just throw out not packed well enough. They should inspect and sign off on that before accepting a package with insurance.

For Greyhound Bus that would have worked as it was never more than a couple feet off pavement. I’ve always used Norm Pearson’s packing method both to and from me. A key component being the double boxing with lots of space. I haven’t shipped a horn since pre covid & I know the size restrictions come into play now - but lots of cushioned space within both boxes around the horn really makes a huge difference. With a big tuba good sized double boxing may be to big a box to even make it onboard with UPS now and I know the prices have gone up dramatically, but there really is no substitute for ample cushioned space inside. Also reducing the number of times the box goes on and off the truck. Meaning drive it to the main distribution center in your area even if that is an hour drive and then having it sent to a buyer’s main distribution center and held there for pickup. If you do it right it goes from one truck to the other center where it’s off loaded and held for pickup. Otherwise, the thing may get loaded off loaded multiple times and riding more conveyor belts. Those places are wild. I had a friend who ran one of the FedX hubs and he gave me a tour. It was insane and stuff falling of one belt to another belt on purpose. I mean it’s only a few feet -BUT a few feet is still quite a wallop for sensitive stuff like tuba’s.

It’s really a shame Greyhound axed the one thing I thought could be their salvation. Shipping large items the size of tubas that couldn’t take the UPS/FedX shippers rigors. Design new busses with better cargo areas - even reducing max passenger count. Let the bus passengers ride at cost plus. Make shipping your focus and main profit center. Run more busses to more hubs strategically located around the country. Design your distribution centers to be just outside major cities near commuter rail whenever possible - much lower cost and much less big city crime & problems & better workers. Drop passengers at train station and then packages to the package center where they would be held or placed on a connecting bus to the final center. Run more fuel efficient smaller passenger bigger package cargo busses on a more timely basis. And a real tracking mechanism. There really is an opportunity for somebody to come into this space and eat a bit of the UPS/FedX lunch for a part of the business they largely ignore or simply can’t service with their current business model infrastructure. I don’t think they understand the size of the underserved market. Electronics & car parts come to mind. Not all of them on so time sensitive to need air cargo and that’s got many of the same problems as UPS.