Pacific Symphony - Principal Tuba

[kharte_on_tuba]

https://www.pacificsymphony.org/storage ... 897093.pdf

[bloke]

Cashier’s checks, money orders, cash, and credit card information will not be accepted.

I would tend to suspect that this is because
- they don't want to deposit any funds in the bank, and
- if any particular applicant doesn't show up, they probably will just tear up the check and not deposit it.

[tofu]

The idea of job applicants having to pay to be apply to be considered for a job just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it’s just me. Not even a high paying job. I get that it might weed out weak candidates but all jobs that are in high demand have to weed out weak candidates (although low pay music jobs seem to be a bit unique being in high demand in spit of the low pay aspect - most high in demand jobs are also high pay).

Seems especially cruel by orchestras in that most of the applicants for these music (tuba) jobs have already spent considerable amounts on education / instruments / plus travel expenses to & from the audition site plus meals/housing and are likely employed in less than great paying jobs while pursuing the orchestral seat. I’ve got no knowledge of the actual costs entailed by these orchestras in this process, but this audition application fee seems like a way to make applicants pay for the employer’s search for a new employee for a position. When I was being considered for jobs - the employer picked up travel/food/housing costs for being interviewed by them - even out of undergrad school.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Candidates don't pay to apply. It's a fully refundable deposit. The check is only cashed in the event that a candidate does not show up to the audition, which unfortunately does happen, sometimes without notification. The few checks that do get cashed don't even come remotely close to being able to fund the audition process.

The purpose of a deposit is not to weed out weak candidates. It's to ensure that only candidates who seriously intend to participate in the audition apply. The committee has limited, valuable time to conduct their audition process, and candidates not showing up is a huge waste of that resource.

There are instances of music organizations covering travel/lodging expenses, though they rarely (if ever) occur in the beginning rounds of the process when there are the most candidates. They are more likely to happen when a select few candidates are being invited on location after significant screening has occurred.

[gocsick]

This is something I've always wondered about... and I am thinking in the context of an academic interview. The last faculty position in our department there were about 200 applicants... about 1/3 were "serious" applications in that there were from candidates who were in the targeted areas etc... Those candidates had their research statements, teaching plans, and CVs gone over by the search committee with a fine toothed comb. from that about 20 were downselected for phone interviews.... 5 were then given longer zoom interviews and the committee sought recommendation letters and/or interviews with their references... 3 were brought onto campus for 2 day visits that included a 1 hour technical talk for the department faculty and grad students.. a 1.5 hour teaching session with the undergrad students , multiple one on one research/technical discussions with faculty and administrators, meals with groups of faculty... It is an exhausting gauntlet for the applicant but both the applicant and the department really get to know each other and see if it is a good match..

I mean couldn't a similar process be done for auditions.. Some kind off pre-screening, followed by a live distance performance, then an extended visit from a small number of finalists with accompanying solo performance and working sessions with other musicians??

[tofu]

Candidates don't pay to apply. It's a fully refundable deposit. The check is only cashed in the event that a candidate does not show up to the audition, which unfortunately does happen, sometimes without notification. The few checks that do get cashed don't even come remotely close to being able to fund the audition process.

The purpose of a deposit is not to weed out weak candidates. It's to ensure that only candidates who seriously intend to participate in the audition apply. The committee has limited, valuable time to conduct their audition process, and candidates not showing up is a huge waste of that resource.

There are instances of music organizations covering travel/lodging expenses, though they rarely (if ever) occur in the beginning rounds of the process when there are the most candidates. They are more likely to happen when a select few candidates are being invited on location after significant screening has occurred.

ok I missed the deposits are returned - in this instance. However, it still doesn’t address the tremendous sums they are expecting candidates to lay out to come play the audition and if they advance to play in the subsequent rounds. This is a no cost cattle call for the organization. It seems that in the past orchestra directors had the ability to pick their musicians such as when Arnold Jacobs was selected for the CSO. Even in the era of Solti he could hand pick who he wanted. That system seemed to work to produce outstanding orchestras. As an audience member I’m just interested in the sound. Now it seems all these groups no longer allow directors much choice. I for one (while the CSO is still an outstanding group) no longer consider it the same league it was under Solti and I have to wonder if that has to do with the audition process.

So it seems to me this current audition process is a bit of fubar for applicants, for music directors, and quite frankly for audiences with end directive in hiring tilted more toward appearances than the absolute best player - perhaps more the best player meeting the DEI. I’ve got no horse in this race as I’m not - nor ever was interested in pursing an orchestral position - I’m just a member of the audience who wants to hear the best musical performances and not really caring about appearance.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Auditions are expensive endeavors for both parties, even if they aren't cutting checks to cover lodging and travel. "No cost cattle call" vastly underestimates the time and resources that goes into conducting an audition.

In the past, music directors did have the power to unilaterally hire individuals without input from orchestra members, and that system was deeply flawed. Not only does it allow for unchecked non-musical bias in any form, it also does a horrible job of hiring people based on merit, particularly if "hand-pick" allows for the "have a musician play in the conductor's hotel room" model that used to occur. Sure, the conductor liked that player, but they weren't necessarily stacked up against other players, and there was never a guarantee that they were hired for purely musical reasons.

Orchestras generally started conducting blind auditions in the 1970s (with Solti starting at the CSO in 1969). I couldn't tell you which musicians were and weren't hand-picked by Solti (except, quote famously, Arnold Jacobs himself who was obviously in the orchestra long before Solti arrived), but the blind audition process was based far more consistently on merit than conductor's hand-picking.

Is the blind audition process perfect? Absolutely not, particularly because few (if any) orchestras actually conduct completely blind auditions. Most have points in the process that allow bias to creep in, including the resume round and the final round when the screen comes down.

Are cattle call auditions perfect? Also absolutely not. I personally would prefer to see more video pre-screening rounds as a way to limit the number of live audition candidates and, to your point, reduce the financial burden that is placed on candidates attending a cattle call. I say video because they are more difficult for splice an unrealistic performance (though not impossible), but the orchestra would need to only listen to the audio so that, again, bias can be prevented from creeping in. In this scenario, it's significantly more reasonable for an orchestra to provide travel and lodging.

[Three Valves]

The idea of job applicants having to pay to be apply to be considered for a job just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it’s just me. Not even a high paying job. I get that it might weed out weak candidates but all jobs that are in high demand have to weed out weak candidates (although low pay music jobs seem to be a bit unique being in high demand in spit of the low pay aspect - most high in demand jobs are also high pay).

Seems especially cruel by orchestras in that most of the applicants for these music (tuba) jobs have already spent considerable amounts on education / instruments / plus travel expenses to & from the audition site plus meals/housing and are likely employed in less than great paying jobs while pursuing the orchestral seat. I’ve got no knowledge of the actual costs entailed by these orchestras in this process, but this audition application fee seems like a way to make applicants pay for the employer’s search for a new employee for a position. When I was being considered for jobs - the employer picked up travel/food/housing costs for being interviewed by them - even out of undergrad school.

Do colleges and universities next.

[russiantuba]

Auditions are expensive endeavors for both parties, even if they aren't cutting checks to cover lodging and travel. "No cost cattle call" vastly underestimates the time and resources that goes into conducting an audition.

In the past, music directors did have the power to unilaterally hire individuals without input from orchestra members, and that system was deeply flawed. Not only does it allow for unchecked non-musical bias in any form, it also does a horrible job of hiring people based on merit, particularly if "hand-pick" allows for the "have a musician play in the conductor's hotel room" model that used to occur. Sure, the conductor liked that player, but they weren't necessarily stacked up against other players, and there was never a guarantee that they were hired for purely musical reasons.

Orchestras generally started conducting blind auditions in the 1970s (with Solti starting at the CSO in 1969). I couldn't tell you which musicians were and weren't hand-picked by Solti (except, quote famously, Arnold Jacobs himself who was obviously in the orchestra long before Solti arrived), but the blind audition process was based far more consistently on merit than conductor's hand-picking.

Is the blind audition process perfect? Absolutely not, particularly because few (if any) orchestras actually conduct completely blind auditions. Most have points in the process that allow bias to creep in, including the resume round and the final round when the screen comes down.

Are cattle call auditions perfect? Also absolutely not. I personally would prefer to see more video pre-screening rounds as a way to limit the number of live audition candidates and, to your point, reduce the financial burden that is placed on candidates attending a cattle call. I say video because they are more difficult for splice an unrealistic performance (though not impossible), but the orchestra would need to only listen to the audio so that, again, bias can be prevented from creeping in. In this scenario, it's significantly more reasonable for an orchestra to provide travel and lodging.

Tuba doesn’t record as well as other instruments as the hall and room can drastically affect the output. Plus, getting a good video recording is quite expensive, meaning you have to own the equipment, which I do not. So, this really creates a lack of equity and makes auditions for those who have the resources (resources include the hall—many will not even have a place to record).

Some orchestras have been giving the option to submit an audio recording for the first round or show up in person. I think that is the best compromise. That, or if the resume round is extra selective, allow candidates not selected to submit audio.

[tofu]

Auditions are expensive endeavors for both parties, even if they aren't cutting checks to cover lodging and travel. "No cost cattle call" vastly underestimates the time and resources that goes into conducting an audition.

In the past, music directors did have the power to unilaterally hire individuals without input from orchestra members, and that system was deeply flawed. Not only does it allow for unchecked non-musical bias in any form, it also does a horrible job of hiring people based on merit, particularly if "hand-pick" allows for the "have a musician play in the conductor's hotel room" model that used to occur. Sure, the conductor liked that player, but they weren't necessarily stacked up against other players, and there was never a guarantee that they were hired for purely musical reasons.

Orchestras generally started conducting blind auditions in the 1970s (with Solti starting at the CSO in 1969). I couldn't tell you which musicians were and weren't hand-picked by Solti (except, quote famously, Arnold Jacobs himself who was obviously in the orchestra long before Solti arrived), but the blind audition process was based far more consistently on merit than conductor's hand-picking.

Is the blind audition process perfect? Absolutely not, particularly because few (if any) orchestras actually conduct completely blind auditions. Most have points in the process that allow bias to creep in, including the resume round and the final round when the screen comes down.

Are cattle call auditions perfect? Also absolutely not. I personally would prefer to see more video pre-screening rounds as a way to limit the number of live audition candidates and, to your point, reduce the financial burden that is placed on candidates attending a cattle call. I say video because they are more difficult for splice an unrealistic performance (though not impossible), but the orchestra would need to only listen to the audio so that, again, bias can be prevented from creeping in. In this scenario, it's significantly more reasonable for an orchestra to provide travel and lodging.

Tuba doesn’t record as well as other instruments as the hall and room can drastically affect the output. Plus, getting a good video recording is quite expensive, meaning you have to own the equipment, which I do not. So, this really creates a lack of equity and makes auditions for those who have the resources.

Some orchestras have been giving the option to submit an audio recording for the first round or show up in person. I think that is the best compromise.

I certainly hear what you are saying and again I’m not involved in any of this audition stuff so I have zero first hand knowledge. You're absolutely right about tubas and recordings. But it strikes me that in many ways there could be some cooperation between large orchestras with each other and with the major universities around the country. The universities have an interest as they are in many ways the farm teams for orchestra’s and they owe a duty to their students to help them with job placement. All these major Universities have excellent halls with excellent video capabilities as do all the major orchestra halls around the country. All the orchestra’s hold these auditions from time to time - why not have say 4-8 of these locations around the county that would ideally be within a 3 hour drive of the majority of applicants. Have another 4-8 locations around the world. All would be halls known for good acoustics and would give some standardization. Most orchestras these days seem to be full of folks from around the world and vice versa. Everybody around the world gets better access to better candidates and potential hires. Much lower cost for all involved, much fairer access for potential applicants and lower costs for all.

I would think you could do a couple round of auditions until you got down to the final 4 applicants. Surely you can get a real indication of applicants time/rhythm/tuning/phrasing - none of which are effected by the sound in the hall to eliminate a good number of applicants. Plus, a fair indiction of their sound as well. At that point of the final 4 applicants the orchestra could pick up all the cost or say split the cost of air fare / housing with the final 4. Perhaps even housing them with donors or local university housing.

[russiantuba]

[quote=russiantuba post_id=118756 time=<a href="tel:1763408862">1763408862</a> user_id=53]
[quote="Colby Fahrenbacher" post_id=118584 time=<a href="tel:1763088027">1763088027</a> user_id=180]
Auditions are expensive endeavors for both parties, even if they aren't cutting checks to cover lodging and travel. "No cost cattle call" vastly underestimates the time and resources that goes into conducting an audition.

In the past, music directors did have the power to unilaterally hire individuals without input from orchestra members, and that system was deeply flawed. Not only does it allow for unchecked non-musical bias in any form, it also does a horrible job of hiring people based on merit, particularly if "hand-pick" allows for the "have a musician play in the conductor's hotel room" model that used to occur. Sure, the conductor liked that player, but they weren't necessarily stacked up against other players, and there was never a guarantee that they were hired for purely musical reasons.

Orchestras generally started conducting blind auditions in the 1970s (with Solti starting at the CSO in 1969). I couldn't tell you which musicians were and weren't hand-picked by Solti (except, quote famously, Arnold Jacobs himself who was obviously in the orchestra long before Solti arrived), but the blind audition process was based far more consistently on merit than conductor's hand-picking.

Is the blind audition process perfect? Absolutely not, particularly because few (if any) orchestras actually conduct completely blind auditions. Most have points in the process that allow bias to creep in, including the resume round and the final round when the screen comes down.

Are cattle call auditions perfect? Also absolutely not. I personally would prefer to see more video pre-screening rounds as a way to limit the number of live audition candidates and, to your point, reduce the financial burden that is placed on candidates attending a cattle call. I say video because they are more difficult for splice an unrealistic performance (though not impossible), but the orchestra would need to only listen to the audio so that, again, bias can be prevented from creeping in. In this scenario, it's significantly more reasonable for an orchestra to provide travel and lodging.

Tuba doesn’t record as well as other instruments as the hall and room can drastically affect the output. Plus, getting a good video recording is quite expensive, meaning you have to own the equipment, which I do not. So, this really creates a lack of equity and makes auditions for those who have the resources.

Some orchestras have been giving the option to submit an audio recording for the first round or show up in person. I think that is the best compromise.
[/quote]

I certainly hear what you are saying and again I’m not involved in any of this audition stuff so I have zero first hand knowledge. You're absolutely right about tubas and recordings. But it strikes me that in many ways there could be some cooperation between large orchestras with each other and with the major universities around the country. The universities have an interest as they are in many ways the farm teams for orchestra’s and they owe a duty to their students to help them with job placement. All these major Universities have excellent halls with excellent video capabilities as do all the major orchestra halls around the country. All the orchestra’s hold these auditions from time to time - why not have say 4-8 of these locations around the county that would ideally be within a 3 hour drive of the majority of applicants. Have another 4-8 locations around the world. All would be halls known for good acoustics and would give some standardization. Most orchestras these days seem to be full of folks from around the world and vice versa. Everybody around the world gets better access to better candidates and potential hires. Much lower cost for all involved, much fairer access for potential applicants and lower costs for all.

I would think you could do a couple round of auditions until you got down to the final 4 applicants. Surely you can get a real indication of applicants time/rhythm/tuning/phrasing - none of which are effected by the sound in the hall to eliminate a good number of applicants. Plus, a fair indiction of their sound as well. At that point of the final 4 applicants the orchestra could pick up all the cost or say split the cost of air fare / housing with the final 4. Perhaps even housing them with donors or local university housing.
[/quote]

This is a unique idea, and let’s ignore the home field advantage of the local college’s students. Again, some older and even professionals with tenure at their current orchestral jobs will still take the auditions. So, we need to ignore the farming of students I think. Plus, you would want this for all their auditions. Tuba auditions are low on the totem pole

1) you wound need a committee to hear. If an orchestra is 52 weeks a year, you would also have to find subs for the panel AND pay travel and per diem, lodging, etc.

2) You would want a consistent panel, so that could mean several weeks missed for a single audition.

3) likely, an applicant would still have to pay lodging, travel, and missed time off work for a local audition.

However, as I’m in the Midwest, I probably won’t ever take a west coast audition. The 4-5 days of travel, missed teaching and gigs, to potentially get cut after a few excerpts is a risk. Likewise, I couldn’t the same about non west coast auditions for those on the west coast.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Regarding the equity concerns: Yes, there is still a cost associated with video recorded prelims, however the equity concerns of the current model are far greater. As tofu pointed out, every time a candidate participates in an audition, they have to pay travel, oversize baggage, lodging, and time off of work. A recorded prelim requires that cost for only a select few individuals, and the investment in a personal recording device becomes just that: an investment a candidate can use for every audition going forward instead of a recurring cost.

Regarding recording in a hall: you don't need to record in the most amazing hall in your area to produce a recording representative of your playing. The purpose of a preliminary round, much like a resume round, is to weed out those who clearly don't meet the expectations of the job. The purpose is NOT to decide who they will hire based on the tape, and the committee should go into that round with that mindset.

Regarding the audition location idea: To a certain extent, this is how some summer festival orchestras handle (handled?) their audition process, and I'm assuming you meant this as a way to facilitate recorded prelims. I originally thought (and I think James responded with this in mind) that you meant a way to facilitate live auditions at select locations around the world for a single orchestra.

[russiantuba]

@Colby Fahrenbacher

Do you realize that many applicants don’t have a hall they can use to even record without paying an arm and a leg?

I consider myself lucky that at worse, I could use a high school hall if the halls at both my colleges were booked out. I also consider myself lucky one of the colleges live streams so does have video, but would have to pay a tech to set it up. There are some solid freelancers in big cities who live in apartments and have to use practice mutes, and even in a house, would dynamics be clear?

A good hall and video can make someone with a 3/4 YCB 621 sound like they have a bigger sound than Mickey Moore on his Alexander 163. Or in the opposite case, an orchestra like St. Louis who would focus on clarity, a different room could highlight those details. You’re not making the hire, but it is an additional cost in the audition process.

I think I saw Baltimore offered an option to send in a recording OR show up to prelims.

[russiantuba]

ok I missed the deposits are returned - in this instance. However, it still doesn’t address the tremendous sums they are expecting candidates to lay out to come play the audition and if they advance to play in the subsequent rounds. This is a no cost cattle call for the organization. It seems that in the past orchestra directors had the ability to pick their musicians such as when Arnold Jacobs was selected for the CSO. Even in the era of Solti he could hand pick who he wanted. That system seemed to work to produce outstanding orchestras. As an audience member I’m just interested in the sound. Now it seems all these groups no longer allow directors much choice. I for one (while the CSO is still an outstanding group) no longer consider it the same league it was under Solti and I have to wonder if that has to do with the audition process.

So it seems to me this current audition process is a bit of fubar for applicants, for music directors, and quite frankly for audiences with end directive in hiring tilted more toward appearances than the absolute best player - perhaps more the best player meeting the DEI. I’ve got no horse in this race as I’m not - nor ever was interested in pursing an orchestral position - I’m just a member of the audience who wants to hear the best musical performances and not really caring about appearance.

Regarding the deposits--I think this is a VERY good idea, and has never bothered me the same. In fact, it served as a catalyst to take an audition and to push towards the end. For those who have not done this, you normally have a week or so prior to cancel, where they will rip your check up. All the checks are returned to the applicant at check in (though it does bother me that anyone can just say I am XYZ and they don't verify it by identification). The orchestras often have to pay the panel quite a bit extra, in many cases, rent the hall for a certain amount of time along with support staff, so when people don't show up and they have to hold the hall longer than expected, that can help offset some of the costs.

Earlier this year, I took a smaller, per service audition. For a longer story besides finances on why I never was big on the circuit, this was the first audition I had ever been part of that didn't have a deposit. A huge number of applicants dropped out last minute or didn't show, causing the audition to be a very poorly ran audition. (Lets just say a colleague who has taken just about every single major audition talked to me about how it was ran, so much to e-mail the orchestra. I didn't think it was ran well and had many issues, and I felt like I was being soft on the organization due to this).

I do suspect that there are several that don't show up. One of the full-time ones I took in the past 3 years had too many applicants in each hour and asked if anyone would volunteer for later times to help the flow. For some, it might not be worth it if other opportunities arose. Let's say I was going to take the Full Time Big City Principal Tuba audition, but I was called to play in the Cincinnati Symphony for the week. I would give up the $100 for the guaranteed work that would propel my career much further. But, that is just me.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Regarding recording in a hall: you don't need to record in the most amazing hall in your area to produce a recording representative of your playing.

@russiantuba See above quote.

Bottom line: In most cases, it is cheaper for a candidate to purchase a video recording device and rent time in a space (high school, church, university, etc) than it is for them purchase plane tickets, pay oversize baggage, book a hotel room, and take multiple days off of work to attend an audition.

This is particularly true if the candidate is ultimately rejected. If a candidate advances, then they will incur additional travel expenses, but at least the trip will be shorter. More importantly, significantly fewer people are on the hook for those expenses.

[russiantuba]

Regarding recording in a hall: you don't need to record in the most amazing hall in your area to produce a recording representative of your playing.

@russiantuba See above quote.

Bottom line: In most cases, it is cheaper for a candidate to purchase a video recording device and rent time in a space (high school, church, university, etc) than it is for them purchase plane tickets, pay oversize baggage, book a hotel room, and take multiple days off of work to attend an audition.

This is particularly true if the candidate is ultimately rejected. If a candidate advances, then they will incur additional travel expenses, but at least the trip will be shorter. More importantly, significantly fewer people are on the hook for those expenses.

Why not offer a hybrid option. Yes, that would help me for any west coast auditions, but essentially you will still want to have a prelim, as many auditions do less than 20% (or less than 10% of applicants) to the next round.

I refuse to fly with a tuba. I know several in the same boat. Plus, for an orchestral audition, you would need 2. I know you hate the concept of cars, but the concept of flying with two tubas AND expecting them to make it unscathed and playable is a tall order. I personally know too many people who have had major issues flying with their horns and their horns arriving crushed, unplayable, if they arrive at all.

[bloke]

It appears as though the super-high level of my trolling skills have gone beyond even my own awareness.

This time, I WASN'T EVEN ATTEMPTING to troll !

All I was doing was stating something that seemed to me to be obvious, and look at all the rhetoric it generated.
(JUST TO BE CLEAR...I've read NONE of it, but only observed the TREMENDOUS VOLUME of it.)

The ONLY thing I was saying was that - were someone to send in a check, but did NOT show up - it seems UNLIKELY that they would cash the check.

Regarding the topic of "why the submission of a check?" - to which everyone seems to have drifted, and with great vigor and emotion -

They require checks because musician audition committees and music directors (at least many of them) HATE having their day eaten up doing auditions (often for no remuneration), and don't wish to have GIGANTIC GAPS in an audition schedule via a bunch of no-shows...so the check thing is (I believe) mostly a bluff to encourage those who apply - and are ON THEIR SCHEDULE - to ACTUALLY SHOW UP). That's it...

...but again: Reviewing their wording about NOT sending any negotiable instruments (such as bank checks, money orders, cash, and the like), I suspect that they will NOT be cashing the checks of any no-shows.
Hey...As whiny and self-righteous as are many music peeps (particularly whose who view themselves as "extremely qualified"), were they to ACTUALLY cash checks of no-shows, they would (I'd predict) be inundated with calls and emails of either angry-demanding or pleading excuses (my aunt died again/my dog ate my mouthpiece, etc.) for refunds.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Bloke, they don't accept money orders, cash, and bank checks because they can't simply tear them up if you cancel appropriately. Since those forms have actual value, they would need to mail them back. Easier to just not accept them.

They might get calls for refunds, but they wouldn't get the refund if they didn't follow the policies outlined by the orchestra.

Re: hybrid option. So...conduct both a taped and live preliminary round? It would provide a candidate more options, but it would increase the burden by the orchestra, since they would need to set aside time to review tapes and host a live audition. As is usually the case, offering more options increases the costs associated with them. Generally not opposed to the concept though, just skeptical that an orchestra would think the costs worth it.

[russiantuba]

Re: hybrid option. So...conduct both a taped and live preliminary round? It would provide a candidate more options, but it would increase the burden by the orchestra, since they would need to set aside time to review tapes and host a live audition. As is usually the case, offering more options increases the costs associated with them. Generally not opposed to the concept though, just skeptical that an orchestra would think the costs worth it.

I’m pretty sure Baltimore did that. Or you could send in tapes and have a response where “you should audition in person” or “we recommend you don’t”.

I’m not sure if they own the hall, but normally you have to pay union wages to the support crew per hour. A panel able to listen at home to reduce the in person auditions would be beneficial.

I think I saw one for another instrument that did a taped AND live prelim, and then those who advanced were invited to semis at a much later date

[bloke]

I'm glad that SOMEONE called them up and - specifically - asked them this stuff so they would be able to report back here and speak with absolute authority.

bloke "I'd bet 1/4th of the amount of a deposit cheque that they ain't depositing any no-shows' cheques."