Right-hand thumb trigger for 2nd valve slide on rotary tuba

[skRi11a]

This is my first post here, and I am somewhat new to the space of tuba players in general. I recently bought a wonderful Scherzer F Tuba, with almost zero info on it anywhere on the internet. When I picked it up, I thought it played and sounded fantastic, and for only $1100 I bought it. From various posts on this site, I have determined that this tuba was only assembled from leftover B&S parts by the manufacturer, Scherzer, in Augsberg, Germany. It is unlacquered raw brass, 4+1 configuration with the 5th valve being a very long minor 3rd (almost too long, even with the 5th slide pushed all the way in it is still longer than the 3rd valve slide pulled all the way out, definitely some alternate fingerings are sacrificed), and I think might take a bass bone shank (unconfirmed but the ID of the mp receiver I measured to be about 14.4~14.6 ish mm). Anyway, the wrap is exceptionally strange: The 1st and 2nd valve loops are what I would consider typical of a rotary valve tuba, but the 3rd, 4th and 5th valve wraps are very bizarre; pictures are here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... LACV2s-HTD

But the main issue with this instrument's quirkiness is the 5th valve loop; its tubing comes in front of the valve block and underneath the paddles, with a tuning slide at the top, in front of the 1st valve slide. This brings me to my main concern; with the typical weirdness of F tuba intonation combined with the abnormally long 5th valve sacrificing any alternate fingering above low C, this tuba has several problematic notes that can't really be solved without manipulating slides with my left hand, which would require me to not use my 5th valve. I cannot have the 5th valve moved to a right hand thumb trigger due to the 5th and 3rd valve loops respectively, and options for implementing triggers for the 1st and 2nd valve slides are severly limited by the more compact wrap which seems to be a common theme with these vintage tubas.

And this is sort of the point of this post; are there any precedented ways to add a right hand thumb trigger to kick out the 2nd valve slide on a rotary tuba like this? After some brainstorming I have managed to come up with my own design (which you may have already seen in the photo album), but I fear that it may be impractical and that I wouldn't be able to find a repair tech who could (or would) build it. So does anybody have any advice on how I should go about this? If there are examples of tubas with a mechanism that does what I'm looking for?

Thanks,

skRi11a

[bloke]

If you'll forgive me for not reading much of your post and just looking at a couple of your pictures and your title,
I think one thing you would need would be either to reset your thumb ring at a more advantageous angle, or remove it, or install an adjustable thumb ring.

Once that is done, I can think of a pretty simple way to install a trigger from the thumb to the second valve slide, but beyond that, the slide itself needs to move very freely and be perfectly aligned and hopefully without leaking. Of course, the second rotor would also need to be vented.

Forgive me if this is a nonsensical reply, as - again - I didn't read all of your post... and I would have read it if I had my glasses and I was browsing with my laptop instead of this little phone. (I'm relying on voice texting technology.)

[skRi11a]

I designed and installed a second valve trigger on a rotary tuba I used to have. It was actually operated by my left hand though. I don't know if the thumb has enough strength to manipulate a slide like that

[bloke]

I have a remarkably nice playing F tuba that's a 4 + 2 configuration.

Just as you are considering, my right hand thumb has been assigned the duty of triggering a slide, and it's not even the first valve or second valve slide; it's the fifth valve slide..

... but it's still within your topic of having the right hand thumb operate a spring trigger, rather than a rotary valve lever.

[skRi11a]

Of course, I plan to have the 1st slide, 2nd slide, and backside 4th slide lapped and their respective valves vented before building on entire new parts to this instrument. And I'm hoping I can maybe get the 5th valve circuit cut a little and perhaps reciever or the entire leadpipe replaced. Thank you for suggesting a thumb ring replacement - this tuba's ergonomics for me are easily its worst aspect; playing for more than an hour or two results in terrible wrist pain in my right hand. So hopefully a better thumb ring will help with that! And I'm absolutely open to any other designs for this trigger if somebody has a simpler or more optimized solution; I tend to overengineer things when I design them. The horrible curse of ADHD + Scope creep...

Speaking of scope creep, this whole project started with me wanting a thumb ring or hook on the backside 4th slide, so I could manipulate it whilst still being able to use the 5th valve. And guess what still hasn't been done yet!

[bloke]

You'll notice that this has no flange, but is a dead-ringer for Miraphone.

You could have someone UN-solder your flange from your bell, then UN-braze the ring from your disc-shaped-flange, braze this assembly's nut (female threaded part) to you o.e.m. flange, and then RE-solder your flange back onto your instrument (either in the same spot or in a more comfortable spot, if a better location exists).

https://www.thomannmusic.com/thomann_th ... g_tuba.htm





Otherwise, a search will show you other adjustable tuba thumb ring assemblies that INCLUDE the flange, such as this one:

[dp]

And guess what still hasn't been done yet!

You haven't spent significant daily practice time playing this horn and making friends with it? Y'know, learning what its designed to do?


p.s. kicker for 2nd valve? left hand, but I'm not sure you know if or where in the range that horn might need one. Or a "cut" on that 5th valve branch. or changes to / replacing the leadpipe. Are you?

[bloke]

Once you rotate the thumb ring, that's way more complicated then your mechanism needs to be for the second slide.

[skRi11a]

And guess what still hasn't been done yet!

You haven't spent significant daily practice time playing this horn and making friends with it? Y'know, learning what its designed to do?


p.s. kicker for 2nd valve? left hand, but I'm not sure you know if or where in the range that horn might need one. Or a "cut" on that 5th valve branch. or changes to / replacing the leadpipe. Are you?

I've owned this tuba for about 7 months at this point and I spend several hours a day every day working on fundamentals, scales, repertoire, and generally learning how the tuba works; "making friends with the instrument", as you say. This is my first F tuba, so not only am I learning the quirks of this tuning in general but the quirks of this specific instrument as well. I desire the 2nd valve slide kicker because any notes with the 2+3 combination between low C and high C# trend sharp, and using 5+2 is always very flat due to the 5th valve slide being, imho, much too long (this is also the reason I would like the 5th valve to be shortened). I also plan on adding a lever for the 1st valve slide on my left hand, but that will be much simpler due to there being considerably less tubing on that side blocking the way. As I've already explained, there is tubing that's in the way which is preventing a left hand kicker for the 2nd valve slide. Otherwise I wouldn't have consulted this forum; there are plenty of resources and information on left hand 2nd valve kickers across the internet. The tuba is far from perfect but it plays and sounds good enough that I believe it's worth modifying in this way. I am considering having the reciever replaced because it currently fits neither American nor European shank mouthpieces - I believe it is designed to take a bass trombone mouthpiece, though I'm not certain. I've been getting by with using an American shank mouthpiece and it seals well, it just wiggles and definitely sticks out a little far.

I'm still a student and by no means a professional or an expert, but that is ultimately my end goal; so I'm just trying to get a really nice F tuba I can use for solo work and orchestral/ensemble stuff throughout college, with the resources that are available to me.

[je]

I am considering having the reciever replaced because it currently fits neither American nor European shank mouthpieces - I believe it is designed to take a bass trombone mouthpiece, though I'm not certain. I've been getting by with using an American shank mouthpiece and it seals well, it just wiggles and definitely sticks out a little far.

The receiver/mouthpiece mismatch is a red flag in my limited experience with regard to overall intonation. Others on this forum can probably say with some certainty, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the worst intonation issues go away with a different receiver and/or mouthpiece.

[bloke]

nothing that a Jarno 5 reamer (or the Morse reamer that is nearly identical in taper - #2) couldn't easily address (assuming a mouthpiece shank taper is true and conforming).

Brass players typically only notice non-standard receivers when the small end of the receiver interior is too narrow.

When the small end of the receiver interior is too wide, they likely never notice.

It's unlikely that addressing small interior imperfections (other than leaks somewhere before the bell flare) are (as tubas are so large) either going to improve a bad tuba or mess up a good tuba...

... I personally suspect...

A correct taper bass trombone shank receiver shouldn't cause a standard shank tuba mouthpiece to wobble. Simply, the tuba mouthpiece wouldn't insert very far...ie. the taper should be the same.

[dp]

And guess what still hasn't been done yet!

You haven't spent significant daily practice time playing this horn and making friends with it? Y'know, learning what its designed to do?
p.s. kicker for 2nd valve? left hand, but I'm not sure you know if or where in the range that horn might need one. Or a "cut" on that 5th valve branch. or changes to / replacing the leadpipe. Are you?

I've owned this tuba for about 7 months at this point and I spend several hours a day every day working on fundamentals, scales, repertoire, and generally learning how the tuba works; "making friends with the instrument", as you say. This is my first F tuba, so not only am I learning the quirks of this tuning in general but the quirks of this specific instrument as well. I desire the 2nd valve slide kicker because any notes with the 2+3 combination between low C and high C# trend sharp, and using 5+2 is always very flat due to the 5th valve slide being, imho, much too long (this is also the reason I would like the 5th valve to be shortened). I also plan on adding a lever for the 1st valve slide on my left hand, but that will be much simpler due to there being considerably less tubing on that side blocking the way. As I've already explained, there is tubing that's in the way which is preventing a left hand kicker for the 2nd valve slide. Otherwise I wouldn't have consulted this forum; there are plenty of resources and information on left hand 2nd valve kickers across the internet. The tuba is far from perfect but it plays and sounds good enough that I believe it's worth modifying in this way. I am considering having the reciever replaced because it currently fits neither American nor European shank mouthpieces - I believe it is designed to take a bass trombone mouthpiece, though I'm not certain. I've been getting by with using an American shank mouthpiece and it seals well, it just wiggles and definitely sticks out a little far. I'm still a student and by no means a professional or an expert, but that is ultimately my end goal; so I'm just trying to get a really nice F tuba I can use for solo work and orchestral/ensemble stuff throughout college, with the resources that are available to me.

so I guessed wrong! ;-) thumb ring was my second guess.
Sounds like you're well on your way to getting this sorted out, differences in tuning (quirks was your word) are usually the result of making some trades and you're spending the time embracing ("making friends") with those tuning differences. Cutting and modifying your first f tuba could leave you quite satisfied with your results. Sure look forward to hearing more about your interesting project