Unhooking Joe's BBb Leash…

[tofu]

I’ve got no insight on this other than:

Mary Ann supposedly has a very nice like new vintage BBb 163 Alexander. You’ve got 163 CC experience and I seem to recall you mentioning you even had a BBb Alex at one point. So you certainly have some experience with 163’s in general and perhaps some muscle memory of the BBb 163 which might make the transition to BBb smoother. If I recollect she was asking $6K for the 163 picked up and I assume you would drive to pick it up anyway. I don’t know what the Yammie fetches these days but I’m guessing 30k is reasonable. That’s 24K banked minus driving expenses. Perhaps more if the Yammie goes for more and perhaps more if Mary Ann gives a special TF member discount. Now this all may be moot if you’re not wanting to return to the Alexander sound (or your ensemble doesn’t), but in a more manageable BBb key. Personally I love the sound of the Alex in an orchestra.

[andycat]

Firstly, sorry you're in this situation.

Secondly, appreciating all your stipulations, I'd still say give a vintage 3+1 a shot. Cheapest bang for buck, excellent tuning and longevity, with a versatile use for most things. Imperial/New standard/Besson 992 are relatively excellent value.

I know you wanted a left facer, but.....

[russiantuba]

I have seen Alexander 164 BBbs pop up for around the $4000 mark. Though a Kaiser, they have the power. Nothing actually bothered me with the tuning and they are only 4 valves.

[the elephant]

Guys, guys, guys…

I appreciate the… zeal… with which some of you are trying to help, but I am not going to do this for sure — I'm *thinking* about it — for maybe next year.

And you are suggesting a BBb analog for a 6/4 YamaYork. I know the piston horns, so I am looking to learn something about the big-boy, super-high-zoot rotary BBb horns.

I'm only looking at model numbers and configurations, trying to winnow things down to one or two only to possibly investigate in person,

Please — PLEASE — stop PMing me here and messaging me on FB with long lists of beater 186s, Chinese instruments of any kind, other CC tubas, Eb tubas, sousaphones, "collectors' items", etc. PLEASE. I appreciate the time and effort you took to compile the (in one case) 39 listings (wow!) of horns simply because they are for sale right now. Just stop it. And do not call me. I did not list my private phone number for a reason. Please stop letting me know that I "need to act fast" if I want this or that horn. I AM NOT BUYING A TUBA RIGHT NOW. Please re-read my initial post, and take time to digest all those words. I took the time to carefully consider them as I wrote; please take the time to carefully think about them when you read the post.

Some of you well-meaning lugs (swell eggs, all of you) sent me long lists of links to smashed up 3/4 and 4/4 horns on their local State Equipment Surplus sites. Great, but not one of them even remotely resembles what I listed in the initial post.

I am a busy guy, but I take the time to carefully read and parse every message you guys send me, including looking at every single link. Please stop flooding my PMs/DMs with stuff I specifically disqualitified via my list in the initial post.

Come on, now, folks…

When participating in this thread, only post up large 5-valved BBb tubas of a sufficient quality (with ALL the qualities I listed as a minimum) to suitably REPLACE a $45000 tuba in a professional work environment.

Since BBb tubas are generally better than CC tubas in many ways, and they usually are cheaper than the same thing in CC, I am looking for a suitable replacement for my MAIN WORK HORN, but in BBb.

I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A GOOD HORN FOR PARADES OR QUINTET WORK. I am also not in any way interested in joining various groups to do this. That is why I am posting here. And only here.

Some of you folks have tried a lot of the largest BBb tubas, and that I what I am after. I want to know about response, intonation, flexibility, tone color and weight, projection, etc. I am not looking for info regarding how well it balances on a strap.

Every time I post with specific questions for this community, I get some info and reams of well-meaning but time-wasting answers that have little to do with what I am asking. STOP PARTICIPATING SIMPLY TO PARTICIPATE. If you are unable to answer what was asked, please don't just post whatever so you can get in on things. That is not only not helpful, but it scores negative help points.

Please keep this strictly on topic when responding to me in this thread. If it is off topic to other posters, use the quote function to indicate this. If you don't, I will assume that you are responding to me directly.

I am looking for information to consider over the winter and spring, leading to a few expensive, time-consuming road trips to test horns. They need to be able to replace a YamaYork or a Nirschl York or an HB-50 to help me pay for my house, vehicles, food, socks, underwear, etc. They are not for use "on gigis" but for my career, daily, until I retire. They. Need to be EASY TO PLAY. Stop suggesting pigs with rotten intonation, magnificent sounds if you can find the right mouthpiece, with a needed air column that only a 20-something in DCI can provide after months of 16-hour training days.

Since I know about the piston choices, I just want to know about the several rotary choices WITHIN THE SPECIFIED PARAMETERS.

It is sort of insulting to have carefully outlined what I am looking for, only to have someone send me a link to forking surplus high school sousaphones.

This is a running theme in this community, and has been for decades. I do not mind it at all, but when this spills over into phone calls on my private line late at night, or a Facebook inbox filled with links to 4/4 tubas and a comment that they may not be a 6/4 but they put out a lot of sound… just come on…

[the elephant]

I do not want an Amati anything; I do not want Cerveny. I am looking for Miraphone, B&S, Melton, and others in that range. I liked the suggestion for the Klingspor Kaiser. I like the information about the big Hirsbrunner, too.

I am not looking for "a big tuba" but for a truly outstanding tuba that also is very large, in the key of Bb — and, for this thread — with rotary valves.

You can list piston horns, too, but I probably know as much as any of you do regarding that class of tuba.

What I do not know is information regarding intonation and low register for large rotary BBb tubas.

Shall we try this again?

HAHAHA!!!

[the elephant]

AND STOP CALLING ME ON MY PRIVATE PHONE NUMBER. IF I DID NOT GIVE YOU MY NUMBER, PLEASE DO NOT CALL ME. I do not give out my number because I do not want to talk to ANYBODY, nor do I want to chit-chat via texting. When some of you text me, I AM ON STAGE AND CANNOT REPLY. I also very much hate texting with anyone, as it is a tool I use for work, and I want to turn that crap off when I am not dealing with work stuff. Please allow me to have a private life.

And NEVER call me at two in the freaking morning. Dude, were you high or what? Very, very uncool…

[bisontuba]

Wade-
I think you might consider going to one of these:

--The 79th Midwest Clinic, December 17 - 19, 2025
Wednesday - Friday, McCormick Place West, Chicago, IL.

--Tuba-Euphonium Workshop
The U.S. Army Band is proud to present our annual workshop.
Feb 18, 2026 - Feb 21, 2026

--ITEA's SERTEC 2026. March 4 - March 6, 2026. University of Georgia. ...

OR

...call Matt Walters

That seems to be the most effective way(s) of finding whatever you are looking for...

Mark

P.S. and....thinking very seriously, how many more years you have playing in Mississippi until you retire....

[the elephant]

We do not have any sort of pension or retirement plan, so no actual "retirement", just the date that you decide to pack it in, so long as you are not canned by the MD or the OC because you are musically stinking up the stage. I am still firing on all cylinders. I hope to be able to do that until I need to, and then I can look at quitting.

My house will be paid off when I am 72*, so until then, at least. That would make 44 years of playing in this group, but I may stay on if I am still playing well. Most of my colleagues retire between 45 and 50 years old. It would be mighty cool to make 50, but I don't think I will be that durable. Luckily, my medical issues are not affecting my playing… mostly. I do need glasses pretty badly. Until I have that taken care of (and maybe some ophthalmic surgery), I have to make it with my trusty Walmart readers and a stand light.

I cannot do clinics because all of them happen — every year — when I am unavailable. I do not take off from work, ever. I have such an open schedule that it might cause me trouble at contract negotiation time. If I have this much free time and I want off from some of my only truly heavy concerts, that is a ticket to dismissal. You cannot miss work in an orchestra. However, if I get enough usable information from this thread, I have plenty of time to make some road trips to places like Dillon. By the way, I plan on talking to Matt, but only after I have some ideas about what I am looking for. I do not like wasting people's time any more than I like having people waste my time. Time is money, and money keeps the lights on and the belly full.

______________

* Due to a number of financial reasons and my desire to leave here at that time, I did not buy a house until I was 42, and I got a great rate on a 30-year fixed from the VA that I could afford. So I am on the hook until that time.

[bloke]

back to the original topic...

I have long suspected that some of these really vintage and ancient kaiser tubas that have been brought back to life and for sale in Europe on individual websites and on eBay (perhaps even with new Meinlschmidt rotary valvesets) tend to feature all the wonky playing characteristics of Cerveny 6/4's, along with a bunch of patches.

This suspicion has been mostly confirmed to me by an unnamed European source, but I believe you've seen that in pictures as well and suspected it yourself. Those instruments started out very thin (just as with my model 98 Miraphone) and handmade, but the primary purpose of thin sheet metal back then was inconsideration of marching and weight. They've taken a lot of abuse and have been beat up and patched up a bunch of times. This in addition to their dubious playing qualities, even with new valves and maybe even a new mouthpipe.

I'm sure you prefer to stick with the standards. I wish I had more experience with the 195 rotary, as I've only played one once. The 195 piston intonation characteristics (having spent more time playing those) are not as good as those on my 98... just sayin'
Far more Europeans play versions of the 195 rotary (again with others playing 197s, but I'm being redundant). I strongly suspect that's due to availability, amongst other factors.

You and I both know that we really can't take anyone's else opinions and reports on things as meaning anything when it comes to instruments. We just have to get in the car and go see what they're all about. I hope you get your cars in good shape soon and without having to spend much money, as well as hoping the best for your health.

tuba shindigs and elephant rooms:
I totally get it. When I first tried to get the mouthpiece thing going, I tried to go to the DC thing every year (also taking some tubas along to attract more attention to my table), but I think you can imagine what it's like having to drive in an L shape to DC from here in one day - stopping to pick up a bunch of new tubas to display and then doing the same thing coming home on a Monday - dropping the tubas (those which weren't sold) back off... As well as setting up and breaking down, and it's also in the dead of winter... Often it would snow that weekend, and there I was with a rear wheel drive full size van.
...but the really big problem was that every year I ended up getting offered a gig after I accepted a table at that event, and it not only cost all the expenses of going there (even though I stayed with my brother), but it also cost the expense of not taking the gig...
... and I've recently driven straight through and straight home from Pittsburgh, but at this age I'm feeling that sort of activity a lot more than I did when I was younger. Driving to and from DC from here and going about 150 or more miles out of the way, that's killer.

[the elephant]

I played a hydraulic-formed Fafner once. Is that the 195? The 197 is the Bayreuth, right?

I liked it a lot. I think one of the nicer 195/2 tubas would suit me well enough. I do not like any piston tuba that started life as a rotary instrument. I think they all have compromised intonation for the sake of looking cool to the kiddos. Every rotor model with a -P version has disappointed me.

I do not dislike the PT-6, but I am not excited by it. If I found one that *did* excite me, I would get it. The PT-6 P, though? Thanks, but no. The rotor version is much easier for me to get what I want out of it. Same with the Neptune. I fell in love with Ed Jones' rotor one before he bought it. I also tried a few of the later piston versions, and they all left me scratching my head and thinking, "Huh?"

I am looking for direct comparisons of the three big Miraphones with the 497 Hagen and the 195 and 197… things like that. Instead, I get listings of crushed Amati 3/4 tubas up for auction in a lot in a state that is six hours from me.

It's nuts. HAHAHA!!!

[bloke]

Along the lines of the almost six quarter C tubas that you just touched on, I also like the rotary pt6 better than the piston one as well. The piston one seems to offer just too much bass knob and with the treble knob turned way down.
The MrP thing... I could play one of those on a gig, but I really wouldn't be excited about owning one. It seems to me that they took the pt6 and tried to make it more like an overgrown 188. I'm not going into details, because words about sounds - along the way things feel - are mostly meaningless.

For decades, Jeff Anderson played the living snot out of a pt6 rotary. I heard him in the Rochester orchestra in New York. It seemed like a perfect type of tuba sound... but he's probably just about the best orchestral tuba player in the United States, if not possibly in the western world... along with possibly being just about the most modest and least seeking of recognition.

[bloke]

@the elephant

Did you evacuate?

[Oedipoes]

I played a hydraulic-formed Fafner once. Is that the 195? The 197 is the Bayreuth, right?

197 is the Melton 'Hilgers' kaiser-based-on-B&F stovepipe model.
There is also a 195-PH model which is the Paul Halwax (Wiener Phil) model, which is the handmade Fafner body with a stovepipe bell.
Daniel Ridder compared both here, listen for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IKUraLbyoY

The Bayreuth is the model name for the Rudolf Meinl 5/4 BBb
Which would also be a great option for you to consider.
I have played one years ago at the Frankfurt Messe, wonderful instruments.
The bigger the instrument, the more attention needed for intonation, also for Rudi's...

[bloke]

I played a hydraulic-formed Fafner once. Is that the 195? The 197 is the Bayreuth, right?

197 is the Melton 'Hilgers' kaiser-based-on-B&F stovepipe model.
There is also a 195-PH model which is the Paul Halwax (Wiener Phil) model, which is the handmade Fafner body with a stovepipe bell.
Daniel Ridder compared both here, listen for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IKUraLbyoY

The Bayreuth is the model name for the Rudolf Meinl 5/4 BBb
Which would also be a great option for you to consider.
I have played one years ago at the Frankfurt Messe, wonderful instruments.
The bigger the instrument, the more attention needed for intonation, also for Rudi's...

In my experience (oddly, admittedly) the size 5 (6/4) Rudy Meinl instruments offer better intonation than either the size 3 (4/4) or size 4 (5/4).
The size 4 (5/4) C is the most wonky of the RM C's (I've owned all three sizes), and all the B-flats' intonation is better than all the C's. The mouthpipe tubes on (at least old) RM size 5 (6/4) tubas are (absurdly?) large in the capillary portion, which dictates a ton of (unnecessary?) work.

Some may remember that I made the capillary portion (receiver and bell wrap-around) of a RM size 5 (6/4) C detachable and interchangeable with a custom one (smaller taper, yet the bore at the junction matched up), and the mouthpipe section that I constructed defined a much more accessible instrument (same resonance / same intonation).

Your identifying those Melton/Meinl-Weston models - of course - is correct. Nothing I said here really contradicts anything in your post, other than (oddly) the largest of the RM C instruments actually being the easiest to negotiate, tuning-wise.

[gnimoyw]

I played a hydraulic-formed Fafner once. Is that the 195? The 197 is the Bayreuth, right?

197 is the Melton 'Hilgers' kaiser-based-on-B&F stovepipe model.
There is also a 195-PH model which is the Paul Halwax (Wiener Phil) model, which is the handmade Fafner body with a stovepipe bell.
Daniel Ridder compared both here, listen for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IKUraLbyoY

The Bayreuth is the model name for the Rudolf Meinl 5/4 BBb
Which would also be a great option for you to consider.
I have played one years ago at the Frankfurt Messe, wonderful instruments.
The bigger the instrument, the more attention needed for intonation, also for Rudi's...

I really liked the sounds from the 195 in Daniel's video, much more than the 197 (obviously just a single recording, blah blah blah and all that).

[BramJ]

Here is a video explaining the differences between the 195 and 196:

It's in german but the subtitles are generally ok, or you try the (awfull) AI dubbed audio track

[Eutubabone54]

I have a mira 190 Bb . I would like to trade for smaller Bb- 186 or rudy 4/4 or even a Piggy c or Bb. I'm 72 and even though the community orchestras I play in love the sound, I need something lighter and smaller maybe even a Cerveny 601 Bb or C would work. Let me know.
Brent
Eutubabone54@gmail.com

[bloke]

LOL...
Threw shade on the 195..."better for amateurs"

guess:
This person sells tubas and owns a 196.

Both sound like "him playing the tuba".
tuning/attacks: (both tubas) curious

Maybe, sometimes I'm playing about like that (such as four months of repair work with very few gigs and no practice).
I'd beg off making a video.

tonal characteristics: ' interesting what (on various cups, but including the "regular deep" cup mouthpieces - such as Helle' 120 depth with various interior contours) what RETREATING from something like barn-door 8.5mm throat to a (reasonable?) 8.1mm throat does for control/ease of playing/centered tone/accessibility of extreme ranges (particularly with really large tubas, but also with other contrabass tubas).

anyway...kudos...Anyone who plays the tuba on the internet has guts.

bloke "throwing shade...?? maybe, but also at myself."

[BramJ]

so, thats what you take from that video? between the 195 and 196 he thinks the 195 would be a better choice for an amateur as it is easier to control.

The interesting part is that the 196 is based on the 195/P, the leadpipe is shorter and the bore through the instrument opens up faster

[MiBrassFS]

.