"C tubas suck"

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

A tiny bit more bell pancake on the 55 (think old vs new Thor, because, well, that’s what it is…), 4th valve bore was supposed to be slightly larger on the 55, but the 51 I recently measured has the same diameter as the 55, and the 55 is gold brass.

I don't see any point in the E-Chino copy (not low-priced), though I've never played one, and I'm just not sure what I think about the Mira-496 (which looks a whole lot like those B&S 5X things...with the - seemingly, rarely purchased Mira-495 appearing in pictures as if its the same tuba with a closer-to-model-51 bore size...basically, a Mira-86/88 bore). I've played a couple of 496 tubas, thought they were "good", but they didn't "shake hands" with me...at least not in the two minutes I devoted to each of them.

With the Holton/York 32" tall / 19" bell / 17.45mm bore pistons - 19mm bore 5th rotor / BB-flat, I can do a lot of things, not take up a huge footprint on a crowded stage, swing it out of the way quickly (if I need to switch to playing a different instrument), and be heard in any orchestra and over any obnoxiously loud organ...same with the Miraphone 98 (different sound spectrum) and the Besson (under construction - due for a 3-valve comp. to a 4-valve comp. transplant) which features both the 24" recording bell and the classic 17" upright detachable bell.

ie. I like what I have...I'm not shopping...All three can be played in tune without doing handstands nor backflips, they all three (when needed - which seems to be "often) can make freakin' loud/pleasing noises, so...

...so, I have three sizes of BB-flats, that all are great, are all different sizes, and - well - I like 'em.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

I like me some Miraphones. I’ve never checked out the 3 new BBb’s…

The 497 (unlike the old 90/190 really tall kaiser BB-flat) is a usable instrument, but I much prefer my 98, and I have played the two models back-to-back.

Notice how similar the BODIES are comparing the (seemingly rarely sold) Miraphone model 495 (smaller bore valveset) to the (seemingly more popular) Miraphone model 496:

(I believe the bell diameters are the same, as well as being the same bell diameter as the GR-51.)

noticeable differences, yet not all that many striking ones...

[Bandmaster]

I made the mistake of trying to learn CC fingerings during my lessons in the fall of 1978, while playing sousaphone in my college marching band at the same time. It did NOT go very well... I was lured in by a brand new Miraphone CC 186 that the school had bought for the Fall Semester, and I was the first one to find out about it. I put in my request to the school's instrument manager and checked it out. I got better during the Winter Semester, but being that I was not a performance major, just a teaching major, I decided to just stick with my trusty BBb mind set...

[bloke]

There is something very alluring (certainly to a 17-18-year-old tuba player in America) about being able to say, "I'm not JUST a regular ol' B-flat tuba player."

[MiBrassFS]

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[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

On the back of the tuba, he's moving 4th slide is moved quite a bit - when in the low range (which is a good thing, and obviously benefiting intonation). Yes, the GR-51 sounds very much like a "richer, even more resonant version of a 5450 C instrument" (but wasn't that the intention?)

With tubas (all brass) which feature the very best (serendipitous) intonation, it's typically the 5th partial pitches played with 1st valve or 1-2 that need to be favored more than any other pitches. It's that way with the Miraphone 98 tubas (albeit very limited production) and with (many) B&S "Symphonie" F tubas. With my B&S Symphonie, the G and F-sharp (1 / 1-2) flatness issue is so minor (and the so-called "slots" so barn-door wide) that I correct those with my mouth...and without even feeling myself do it.

With the 98, C (1) and B (12) need mechanical help. I removed the 1st slide assembly, cut 1/2 inch of both of the 90-degree turns approaching it, then reinstalled it, so as C is with the #1 slide all the way in (dead on) and B is just about the same (almost all the way in, but - within 1/16" - the length matters very little with an 18-feet-long bugle). The range of the #1 slide (even after shortening the non-tuning portion) allows for a C-natural played 1-3, which allows me to favor the #4 circuit towards 2-4 B-natural (which solves quite a few problems. Also (rather than a shoestring) I installed a "legitimate" stop-rod on my #1 slide assembly.

also: A 5th valve on a B-flat tuba isn't as much of an absolute necessity as with C tubas but (with midi keyboards and AI being used to compose and arrange so much music now - along with the long-mistaken/misguided "Tchaik-esque" view of the tuba as being "an octave below the bass trombone") a 5th valve on a B-flat tuba certainly makes things nicer.
I use it for
- low F-sharp
- low E-flat (which appears in music so much more often than it did in the past)
- low D-flat
- As the 98 is such a large instrument, "double-low" C and B (if ever requested, which they are not) are actually better with 3 and 2-3.

...The fact that a very large percentage of brass instruments (including trombone 5th position) offer a flat 4th partial 2-3 valve combination...You've seen the gadget on my 98 (as my 3rd slide is actually on the BACK of the instrument) whereby I can push the #3 slide in with my left wrist (while continuing to grasp the #1 slide bow) and it features a spring return (for the sake of the other three 2-3 pitches' intonation: low F-sharp, C-sharp, and F-sharp up in the staff. This tuning feature ALSO solves the centering problem of attacking the B-flat tuba "dreaded" F-sharp up in the staff - as the tubing length - for that pitch - isn't compromised).

summary: Yes (known for quite some time), he's a fine player.

[jtm]

There is something very alluring (certainly to a 17-18-year-old tuba player in America) about being able to say, "I'm not JUST a regular ol' B-flat tuba player."

To be fair, that worked for me as a 50-something tuba player in America, too.

[1 Ton Tommy]

The discussion seems to focus mostly on intonation but for me there is the issue of fingerings too. For example on my Eb Willson; Last concert I played one piece that was in E with some tough fingering combinations. Eg. When I go through E on on the way up or down to some other finger twister, I have to make it 2-4. I can't do this with one hand as I can't get third finger out of the way fast enough. That was easier on the 3+1 horn but on the front-action Willson, I reach around and play 4th with my left hand as though it were a 3+1. 1,2 & 3 is way too sharp unless I start messing with 1st and 3rd slides which I have set for a high F and 2,3 B nat. Obviously, I couldn't do that with a top loader.

So would this sort of issue go away or be less frequent with a CC tuba? I've never payed one.

[bloke]

The discussion seems to focus mostly on intonation...

and - even more (for the same size/style/(maybe even) sister model of instrument: RESONANCE

A high-profile-to-tubadom guy with whom I studied (some) in the past, would often refer to this-or-that B-flat characteristic and striving to get a C instrument to sound more like a B-flat. These days, that person is playing quite a bit of B-flat. It's not an expensive one, but it's the same size as the C instrument they're known to use. His section-mate (bass trombonist - also high-profile) likes the B-flat sound. He (just as with all the rest of us) readily admits that playing that B-flat instrument requires considerably more player accuracy.

...That having been said (player accuracy), a very fine local-to-me trumpet player pointed out to me that when really good players flub attacks, it's nearly always because they're trying to play a pitch IN-tune which is OUT-of-tune on their instrument. Just play the pitch where it is on the instrument and then - once the vibration/resonance has been established - IMMEDIATELY correct the pitch (or come up with some way to get the instrument itself in-tune).

I played in a freeway philharmonic with a principal horn (fired after that year) who would flub a bunch of attacks. I suspect that the horn they were using (damned expensive and a coveted make) could easily be played in tune, but (simply listening to what was going on) I could tell that their horn was tuned too short (sharp) and they were lipping virtually everything down (re: my wise trumpet player friend's insights).

The typical (he-man attitute?) comment, "It's the PLAYER who plays in-tune, and NOT the instrument"...

pfft

[catgrowlB]

I enjoy many types and sizes of tubas. But for small tubas (under 4/4) I really only enjoy BBb tubas, as the sound is still beefy and substantial enough, and usually very responsive in that size. I also really enjoy large/fat Eb tubas, and maybe some F tubas. Generally not a fan of small skimpy little bass tubas.

If you take a Mira 186 BBb vs Mira 186 CC of the same vintage, the BBb will have a little more 'bacon fat' in the sound, especially in the lower register. Same If you compare a MW 25 BBb vs a MW 30 CC.

But to me, many CC tubas still have a very attractive color to the sound, while still being very deep and thick.
It's more about the individual tuba more than the pitch it's in...

[Mary Ann]

Since I have both a 186CC and my Hagen 494 BBb in the house -- I have to comment. Others have play tested this 186 and pronounced it a good one, despite its age and "student" level of glitter. Meaning, it has the sound and the intonation one would expect from a good 186.
But the Hagen beats it hands down for both sound AND playability. With four valves.
I spent many years on a 184CC on the Eb part in brass band; then when I got the NStar, the 184 slid quickly into second place. When I got the Hagen, it became my contrabass love. It took me a while to learn to manage the air on it, but now I can just pick it up and play, and I have realized I won't go back to CC for anything, and might as well sell what I've got, because they just sit. There is nothing like a good BBb sound.

[prodigal]

I'd love to try a 1960ish 186 BBb against my 1960 186CC.

[bloke]

The early 186 BB-flat tubas featured a loop-over 4th valve slide.
It fit into the same "closet" on the instrument as today, but was longer, so as for it to be possible to play B/E naturals in tune.

To play C and F in tune (as that 4th slide was too long to play C and F up to pitch), I'm pretty sure that one was expected to pull out the #1 slide.
(This is how I manage tuning with my model 98.)

[t00ba]

If you haven't seen it, this Tubassadors video compares a number of BB-flat tubas with short playing examples. I think the those BB-flat tubas all sound really nice:

[bloke]

The most frustrating thing about videos like this is I'm not in the least interested in their opinions, but only interested in when they put it up to their faces and play them... and that's typically 1% of these types of videos.

Admittedly, such videos are more enlightening when the players are better players.

[prodigal]

One thing I've learned from you all: There's nothing wrong with a good BBb. (I do want to try- not buy- a kaiser BBb some day.)

[bloke]

One thing I've learned from you all: There's nothing wrong with a good BBb. (I do want to try- not buy- a kaiser BBb some day.)

The tuning on a whole bunch of the kaisers is pretty wonky, particularly the older ones and older designs.

The Meinl-Weston 25 is sort of a 5/4 version of a kaiser. The fifth partial is pretty flat, but the rest of it behaves pretty well. The JP version is just about identical quality and playing characteristics.

My 98 is a pretty rare thing and it's a crossover 6/4 b-flat, featuring a Holton-shaped bell on a Kaiser everything else.
I really prefer to blow right through the center of the pitch at which a tuba wants to vibrate. I'm not that satisfied with favoring pitches with my mouth, though I'll do it when I have to obviously.

When the 98 is warmed up, I can put anything where it needs to go with about a 2 1/4 inch range on my first valve slide, and it would be less than that were it not that I have decided to play C natural below the staff with 1-3, instead of 4. (I've adjusted the first valve slide whereas second space c features the first slide all the way in and the octave lower 1-3 c is played with that slide out as far as I just described.)