Unhooking Joe's BBb Leash…

[the elephant]

Okay, Joe. I am being buried in medical debt. My wife is now having to make hospital visits. Our insurance premiums are about to double. Meds will likely go up, too. I need to try and stay ahead of these issues this time around. The last round was costly and took me a long time to sort.

I am thinking I may have to sell the YamaYork. (I already have two standing offers for it.)

I sold my 186 and am just sick about that. I have the 345 up for sale at an intentionally high price: too high for a frankentuba, but about right for how it plays. But the frankentuba part keeps people from driving all the way out here to try it and see that the price is in line with what it is.

I need my F.

That leaves the 826, which also sickens me.

However, I play just enough to get my BBb reading chops back without getting in over my head,

Or at least I think so. (If I have something I cannot get ready, I can use the Holton.)

So with that in mind, perhaps it is time to pass you some BBb validation by buying myself one.

???

I want to open this thread up to suggestions with videos from any participants if they choose to share them. Photos are always fun.

IF (and it is a big "if", though it is growing quickly, right now) I do this, I know nothing about current BBb tubas. I have some wants and some needs.

• 5 rotors in the right hand
• easily accessible 1st and 3rd slides
• comfortable position for the left arm
• in-tune open partials
• in-tune 23 partials
• good clarity throughout
• easy upper register
• outstanding, responsive low register
• 5/4 boomer or 6/4 poofy boomer, but not a fluff machine — I want the anger!

I prefer Miraphone models, but do not know any of the BBb numbers or descriptions.

Needs to be "affordable" in the used market and, well, somewhat available so that I can drive around and try a few. New is not out of the question, but used would allow me to hold a lot of the Yamaha money for medical expenses.

Okay, you are off your leash! Run amok and share your opinions on various BBb big horns. Traditional Kaisers (with the above characteristics) are good. Modern wraps are also okay. I don't know anything.

Note: If only available as a 4-banger, it must have adequate room for an independent 5th to be installed by me, either before (as on a 186) or after (on either side of) the main slide.

Anyone else who knows about these specifically from firsthand experience is welcome to chime in.

[PlayTheTuba]

Well, I can't comment on how well in tune they are.

Short story
There's a good chance you would really like the Miraphone 496 Hagen the most.


Long Story

Miraphone 'Slant Rotor' 289: Can be had with 5 valves, although I don't think I've seen a 5 valve on on the used market before. It's main complaint is that it is top heavy. Plus, it's been awhile since an example has been brought to the army conference, so I can't comment on ease of reach for the valve slides.

5 Valve photo
https://www.miraphone.de/bbb-tuba-289-5 ... s-1-5.html

4 valve photo
https://reverb.com/item/76590112-miraph ... -excellent

Miraphone 496 5/4 BBb
Very good, it's probably better than the 289. I just personally like the 289 a lot!

@Doc video's featuring the 496

Unboxing and first notes


Miraphone Hagen 496


Miraphone 497 Hagen
A 6/4 BBb. More German style than the Miraphone Siegfried BBb. Plays really well. Chris Olka has some videos. I personally like the Siegfried myself a lot more

One of Chris Olkas Videos



Miraphone Siegfried BBb
My personal favorite 6/4 BBb tuba that I played so far. @bloke mentions it a lot . Which is great because I really like that model.
https://www.miraphone.de/bbb-tuba-54.html

B&S GR 55
Quite nice too. Can be ordered with 5 valves. Eastman makes a similar horn to this, but I liked the B&S a little bit more. I thought the Eastman was missing something, but not sure what it was... Maybe the B&S had a tiny bit more resonance? Not sure

Although, due to the way the 3rd valve tubing is arranged, I am not sure how easy it is to reach while playing the tuba.

I am sure a photo of a 5 valve exists somewhere on this forum but it'll take awhile to find it...

From Thomann.com
https://www.thomannmusic.com/bs_gr55_l_bb_tuba.htm

Eastman EBB825
See comments about the B&S GR 55
https://www.eastmanwinds.com/ebb825

Meinl Weston Fafner 195 and Fasolt 196
They play fine. I prefer the B&S or the miraphones though. It would nice to hear what they sound like in an open room, and not in the 'Elephant' (ie conferences, conventions) room. Not sure how easy it is to reach the slides. If you have long enough arms it probably isn't too much of a stretch. A Japanese tuba player shared his thoughts on a lot of tubes, I think the Fasolt was on that video. I'll have to find the link later.

Meinl Weston Fafner 195
https://www.melton-meinl-weston.com/en/ ... bas/195-2/

Meinl Weston 196 Fasolt
https://www.melton-meinl-weston.com/en/ ... 96-fasolt/

Meinl Weston 197
Probably the most "Germanic" (German style). Although you probably have to manipulate the first valve slide a lot... I haven't played one but at least it seems to be to case from short internet clips that I've seen.
https://www.thomannmusic.com/melton_197 ... iginal.htm

Wessex Luzern TB575
Wessex offers the Hirsbrunner copy with 5 valves
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... zern-tb575

Wessex XL TB576
Same or mostly the same as the Luzern but with an upright bell and recording bell!!!!!!
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... a-xl-tb576

Wessex Kaiser TB790H
I personally didn't like this horn. It's cool that they make it though. Granted, I never really liked the German Style tubas, except a Hirsbrunner Kaiser.
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... ves-tb790h

Willson
Wilson makes (still makes?) 2 rotary BBb 's. They are 4 valves, but IF Willson still makes these horns, I am sure they wouldn't mind (fingers crossed) adding a 5th valve to them.

Willson BBb 454 rz
I haven't played this tuba. Doubt I'll ever get the chance to try it . No clue how comfortable it is to hold either. Pretty unique though. A super old Czerveny Eb and a Jupiter 3/4 BBb has the valves oriented that way.
https://willson.ch/en/instrument/willso ... 454-rz-4-0

Willson 3100 rz 4
WHY does Willson not have a photo of this or the 3050 CC version? I got to briefly try the CC version. The valve paddles are mounted really high. In stock form probably not too comfortable or chances are you may not like it too much.
https://willson.ch/en/instrument/willso ... 100-rz-4-0


Alexander 164 BBb
Might be a 6/4? I am assuming the new ones have better intonation characteristics. Haven't played one though.
https://gebr-alexander.de/products/b-tu ... kaisertuba

-----------------------------------------


I haven't tried these and they are not sold on the US from an official retailer, as far as I am aware.

HS Musical from Brazil has a rotary tuba that is listed as a 5/4 tuba. Although, I am not if it actually is. That model is called the TB2

A photo can be found on this link
https://www.hsmusical.com.br/instrumentos



HSM
From Manuerkirchen Germany. Makes a 6/4, NOT a 5/4 BBb. I'll still include it because it looks sweet
https://www.hsm-brass.de/tuba_prospekt.pdf

Klingspor B6
Agin a 6/4, NOT a 5/4. It looks cool.
https://klingspor-brass.de/klingspor-tuben/

[hrender]

Would be worth hearing feedback on this: 1960’s Hirsbrunner BBb Model HBS193

Rick Denney's take: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=65022

I am sorry for your troubles.

[bloke]

You may have noticed that (4-valve) Holton 345 BB tubas' #1 slides are long enough to play 1-4 E-flats, and D-flats...possibly C's, but (very large BB-flat tubas) C's are probably better with 1-2 and (B-natural) who the hell is playing those?

These 345 BB tubas are "random" (tuning-wise), and not just because of sloppy factory assembly...probably more due to slopping factory bow forming.
I've actually encountered a few with "186" tuning qualities.
...the 2-3 combination... Very few brass instruments' 4th partial 2-3 combination is up to pitch - compared to the other three pitches played with that combination. Some claim that the "low" pitch (F-sharp, with BB-flat tuba) is sharp, but - in reality - its closer to in-tune with the 3rd and 8th partial 2-3 pitches (usually) than the 4th partial one. Trombone players make a joke (about Piglet and Pooh talking about 5th position, and not knowing where it is) for a reason.

It's easier to find BB-flats with not-wonky intonation than C instruments, but quite a few (including "the best 6/4 York-style BB-flat ever made" - a high-markup Chinese model) feature saggy 3rd partial F's (just as with the G's on the 6/4 C's). The best of them seem to feature slightly saggy F when COLD, but - as the large upper bow finally warms up (winter) - the F is on pitch. Mine is this way...F "wants" (therefore I favor it slightly) to be 10c. low when quite cold, but is on-pitch (no lipping, and I have to remember to STOP lipping and LISTEN) when warmed up.

The 195 rotary tubas (Meinl-Weston/Melton) are very popular in European orchestras, as is the (said to offer more challenging tuning) 197 (which requires a particularly nicely-vibrating embouchure to produce a beautiful sound). The 195 rotary tubas are equipped with only 4 rotors. I believe a 5th could be added, but an upper #4 circuit reconfig would probably be necessary (as pictures indicate likely available space interference).

The GR51/55 4-valve B&S BB-flats (NOT 6/4) are pretty nice...and it seems to me that there's really no reason to look at the Chinese knock-off, as the (new) pricing is so close...

Miraphone...??
Yeah...a bunch of peeps are buying those 496 things (5/4). I'm not a super-fan of the (6/4) 497, and (again) a 5th valve would be aftermarket.

Hell...you ALREADY know that a well-assembled King does a fine job, and my (just slightly smaller and shorter) Holton/York (same exact size bottom bow as King, fwiw, and the York/Holton bows and bells are the same as each other) thing makes a helluva racket, if needed. Mine weighs 24 lbs with 5-valves and a hybrid King valveset...which isn't lightweight...but you didn't ask about "light"...and (obviously) those listed in this paragraph are neither rotary nor large).

[prodigal]

I was wondering this as well. What big BBbs are worth a transition? Are the BAT BBbs that much better. (Granted the only BAT CC I've ever liked was the PT-6, and I'm not sure that qualifies as a BAT...)


elephant: If you're ever up in the Baltimore/DC area and need a 186CC for a gig, ring me up! I love mine. Our school 186 BBb isn't bad, just more vanilla than my small small shank, small bell 186CC.

Our section in band is an Alex 163, MW 25, Yammy 641, and me on the anti-social 186CC. They sound great together!

[bisontuba]

Why not look for another vintage 186 CC?

[Oedipoes]

Just adding my 2 euro-cents to the ones in this list I have played or owned:

Miraphone 'Slant Rotor' 289:

Played the 5 valve model, great tuba!
Selected this tuba over the Adams copy of the Hirsbrunner HBS 492 piston model for a friend

Meinl Weston Fafner 195 and Fasolt 196

Fafners are good tubas, but I liked the handmade 195/2 a LOT more than the standard one when trying them back to back.

Willson
Wilson makes (still makes?) 2 rotary BBb 's. They are 4 valves, but IF Willson still makes these horns, I am sure they wouldn't mind (fingers crossed) adding a 5th valve to them.

They make them with 5 valves, no problem.
I Have owned the 4-valve 3100-RZ4, and it sounded great.
However, the rotors were not as fast as I wanted, and the instrument weighed a ton already with 4 valves only...
The piston equivalent is even heavier, but great sound as well.

Klingspor B6
Agin a 6/4, NOT a 5/4. It looks cool.
https://klingspor-brass.de/klingspor-tuben/

I was at Klingspor's shop a couple of years ago and I liked his B6 tuba a lot!!
These are very good tuba's, a bit like the handmade Fafner, but with more character.

I can add from my own experience:

Rudi 4/4
Very hard to beat, great sound, great instruments, I added a 5th to mine and that was a great combination.
Sold it to buy the Hirsbrunner below, but would have been equally happy keeping it.
Sounds like a medium size organ.

Hirsbrunner HBS 192 4/4
I own the 5-valve version and it plays like a dream.
Has more zip to the sound when needed, compared to the Rudi.
For your use (@the elephant) this would be a great instrument.

B&F kaiser tuba
A bit of a unicorn, but mine was restored with 5 new Meinlschmidt valves, and it is one great kaiser tuba!
Sounds like a full size organ, if you have the lung capacity...

Miraphone 191
Great tuba with the best rotors on the market.
I would choose the Hirsbrunner or Rudi over the Miraphone, but that's a matter of personal taste I guess.

Would love to try the Hagen 496/ 497 back to back with my Hirsbrunner and B&F kaiser tuba...

[gnimoyw]

Just adding my 2 euro-cents to the ones in this list I have played or owned:

Miraphone 'Slant Rotor' 289:

Played the 5 valve model, great tuba!
Selected this tuba over the Adams copy of the Hirsbrunner HBS 492 piston model for a friend

Totally agree. I toured the Miraphone factory in Germany about 10 years ago, and played the 289 in their big room, along with a bunch of other horns. The 289 was my favorite, but you so rarely see them in the US.

[Mark]

The big Eastman BBb, I think the EBB825G, is available with five valves. For the money, it is a very, very nice tuba.

[the elephant]

Why not look for another vintage 186 CC?

Not looking for that. This is about moving back to BBb and paying off debt.

[Sousaswag]

Your best bet is probably a B&S or a 195, B&S being more common. I’ll try and dig up a photo of the 195-4, but I very much enjoyed playing it a few years ago. There’s a very nice gentleman who purchased a Fafner with an added 5th local to me. It’s an excellent instrument.

Or, you could slick out a BB-345. I can’t comment yet on mine but at the very least it’ll be pretty… Joe’s right though, you sort of roll the dice on intonation with those. I know it’s not rotary, but you already like your CC version…

I wouldn’t put Willson into the list of contenders. You know the amount of money and work I put into my 3200 RZ-5’s valves to make them suck less. I love my tuba, but not the design choices of their rotor models.

[MiBrassFS]

.

[bloke]

I didn't move to B-flat to end up with extra cash, but I can see how this could be a thing...
- more resonant/easier-to-play-in-tune (comparing best-to-best) tuba with cash back...

I just did it (ten year plan, I suppose) looking for a used version of the 98...as I was so wowed back when they were a new thing and were on display at tuba shindigs and elephant rooms. Also, "the area of the world where orchestral music began" actually REQUIRES B-flat instruments, so (maybe...??) they know something (something BEYOND "because that's what we do".

Miraphone...The old model 90 44+ inches tall kaiser B-flats...the rotors are very large diameter (lots of contact/surface area and weight/weight, which limits their speed) and the tuning is VERY "old world" (read "difficult"). They are amazing to behold, though...particularly those with the smaller bell flair diameter (c. 17-1/3 inches - 440mm). They also sound amazing, YET are difficult for the player to hear (with the bell "way UP there" - sorta like recording bell tubas are difficult for the player to hear, because the bell is "way OUT there").

I actually like the VINTAGE Besson 3+1 comp's (newer/bigger ones...intonation is too faulty, in my experience). With the old ones, the only really troublesome pitch is E-flat in the staff (sharp, with no relief other than some sort of right-hand thumb-operated #1 slide trigger). Those with the 24" recording bell (challenging to hold and play - about as bad as Willson contrabass tubas) but - gawd - what a SOUND !!!

[MiBrassFS]

.

[hrender]

Baltimore Brass has a new GR51 in stock. I recall seeing a used 289 somewhere, but I think it was on the West Coast and needed some work.

edit: found it

[hrender]

Forgot that Dan Oberloh has a Miraphone "Keizer" as well as a PT-605 (same as the GR51).

[Heavy_Metal]

Might want to see if this is still available:

https://www.tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php ... 32#p117332

[JC2]

I’m not sure of your financial situation, but I think if you can you should keep the Yamaha. You’ll very likely regret it if you do let it go and you’ll almost certainly never be able to get another one if you change your mind.

There’s not many excellent York copies around, but the very best ones have a magical combination of sound and ease of playability. Just be 100% sure you’re not going to painfully regret letting it go.

There’s all sorts of weird anti-York 6/4 C propagandas going around this forum, most of which is complete BS. I’d encourage you to not let that influence you in making a bad decision.

[JC2]

I’m not sure of your financial situation, but I think if you can you should keep the Yamaha. You’ll very likely regret it if you do let it go and you’ll almost certainly never be able to get another one if you change your mind.

There’s not many excellent York copies around, but the very best ones have a magical combination of sound and ease of playability that aren’t replicated in other models. Just be 100% sure you’re not going to painfully regret letting it go.

There’s all sorts of weird anti-York 6/4 C propagandas going around this forum, most of which is complete BS. I’d encourage you to not let that influence you in making a bad decision.

I’ve never heard anyone, even the best players in the world, make a rotor BBb tuba sound as smooth and pure as a piston CC. It’s nearly impossible to completely eradicate typical rotor BBb slightly split attacks, dirty slurs, muddy technical passages.

[JC2]

I’m not sure of your financial situation, but I think if you can you should keep the Yamaha. You’ll very likely regret it if you do let it go and you’ll almost certainly never be able to get another one if you change your mind.

There’s not many excellent York copies around, but the very best ones have a magical combination of sound and ease of playability that aren’t replicated in other models. Just be 100% sure you’re not going to painfully regret letting it go.

There’s all sorts of weird anti-York 6/4 C propagandas going around this forum, most of which is complete BS. I’d encourage you to not let that influence you in making a bad decision.

I’ve never heard anyone, even the best players in the world, make a rotor BBb tuba sound as smooth and pure as a piston CC. It’s nearly impossible to completely eradicate typical rotor BBb slightly split attacks, dirty slurs, muddy technical passages. It might just be me being a perfectionist, but it would drive me insane if that was my only contrabass tuba and I couldn’t get it to not sound dirty.