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[MiBrassFS]

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[catgrowlB]

That's a beautiful York BBb
I have a tuba friend here in my area that has the 4-valve version of yours. He bought it from some old grumpy guy. Aside from 4 valves and the MTS being after the valves, his horn is exactly like yours. Same BBb bugle and same engraving, but with J.W. York and Sons on the bell, with U.S.N. under it. I serviced that tuba a couple months ago. Probably the mellowest/warmest-sounding BBb tuba I've played. Response was easy from low register to high. Overall intonation was good. I believe the dimensions I got were 18" bell, .750" valve bore, and 37" or 38" tall, from what I remember. Some may call it a 4/4+ tuba if they were to handle and play it in person...

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

It's a ton of work to straighten those out. I've done it. I found a company that has some thin solid material that's pretty close to the 345 Holton guard wire (which is narrower than King). I used it on a Holton bow and it actually is nearly a perfect match for appearance. The challenge is that it's solid instead of hollow, so it requires more heat control to solder on the instrument and it's also a little bit more resistant to conforming to the bow.

I admire your patience and dedication to straightening all that out.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

I save scraps of new and old guard wire that aren't all messed up.
I'm mostly referring to run of the mill King width wire.

You've seen what I do with crushed first and second branch areas on sousaphones to avoid taking them all apart, which is to cut away sections of ribs and put them back in when I'm done (making room for magnets, or a combination of annealing and magnets).

About half the time - rather than straightening out the mangled piece of rib that I removed, I'll look up on the rack and find a piece that's about that long that is either old and undamaged or a piece cut off of a new one. (I understand that - with some cool old York tuba - splicing ribs back together might not be as desirable, but I'm talking about sousaphones that have been used to play ring toss.)

Having to quote on repairs before doing them, it's important to get them done in minimal time, because there's always stuff one must repair that one didn't notice when writing up a quote.
There's also a factor where if there's a whole bunch of repair work and their maximum no bid purchase order is $5,000, I need to figure out a way to repair all of them (and repair them well) for under $5,000 and still make decent money. ... Understanding that this is the year 2025, not the year 2020, and that $5,000 is the old $2,200 or so.

I'm not sure how much of it I currently have, but - whenever I come across narrow guard wire in good shape that isn't needed for a particular instrument, I will squirrel it away for a future use on instruments such as Yorks, etc. if anyone asks me if I have any that they can use for their project, my answer is always "sorry, no", and that's whether I need it or not, because I know I will need it in the future and I won't have any place to get any - other than what I've squirreled away.

1920s Buescher "monster" E flat tubas are a pretty good source for narrow guard wire, because those tubas played like crap (no usable scale), and about all that's really worth anything on them is their upright bells, their water keys, their braces, and things like that. Further, their guard wire often isn't damaged, because those things played so badly that they didn't get played much.

[MiBrassFS]

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[arpthark]

The wider stuff I can find all day! This stuff, not so much. It’s definitely worth squirreling away.

As you well know, the “monster, giant, etc. Eb tuba” time period was during that golden age of town bands. There was a need for them and it was an interesting part of our history. They’re fun instruments… to play by yourself… and imagine what that time period was like. Typically, smaller, dedicated (not BBb bells and bottom bows adapted to Eb lengths) Eb tubas from that time period were just better. Their overall taper was closer to what was needed. Using a period, or a near facsimile thereof, mouthpiece with the correct shank helps, too! (Bloke solo with British shank is a good choice for me…)

The Martin Medium Eb I just picked up is a great example of this. Really good intonation, nice sound, conservatively sized. I’d love to convert it to a 5v front action horn some day.

[bloke]

The most in tune of the old giant E-flats or monster E-flats to me seem to be the 18-in bell Conn's (which preceded those with larger diameter bells), and I guess York/Holton comes in second.

I'll have to admit that I'm not spend any time with the Martin's.
They could be the best of all for what I know about them, but we also know that the Martin fans are going to say that they are anyway - whether they are or not.

[York-aholic]

The Martin Medium Eb I just picked up is a great example of this. Really good intonation, nice sound, conservatively sized. I’d love to convert it to a 5v front action horn some day.

I think that’s a great idea. I bet it would play REALLY well.

* Now with genuine MOP Yamaha finger buttons…

Now with genuine MOP Yamaha finger buttons…

IMG_2161.jpeg (137.24 KiB) Viewed 2657 times

[York-aholic]

The most in tune of the old giant E-flats or monster E-flats to me seem to be the 18-in bell Conn's (which preceded those with larger diameter bells), and I guess York/Holton comes in second.

I'll have to admit that I'm not spend any time with the Martin's.
They could be the best of all for what I know about them, but we also know that the Martin fans are going to say that they are anyway - whether they are or not.

The Martin “Medium” Eb tubas are smaller than other makers’ Monsters, but a bit larger in bugle and bell than the small York 15” bell Eb tubas.

The little York I flipped to make a 4+1 plays pretty darn well. Much better than any of the York monsters I’ve owned (two 3v front action and a 3v top action/18” bell). The Martin Medium pictured above is every bit as good as the smaller York but with a bigger sound and ever so slightly better intonation.

The Martin Mammoths are pretty highly regarded. The much much less common medium BBb tubas I used to have (3v top action fixed upright bell and 3v front action detachable recording bell) were quite good. I liked the top action’s sound better than the York 33 I owned concurrently. I would very much like to find another one of those. Very much.

[bloke]

Yeah...
I've played and worked on the huge Martin B flats of both configs.
They behave themselves reasonably well, tuning-wise...
... certainly as well as any of the key of C yorkophones.
...but "the huge pre-war American E flats" is sort of the topic.
I'm thinking that those were built with the intention of being able to hand an instrument to a trumpet player to cover the tuba part, who could just pretend like they were reading B flat treble clef... But none of them were really quite able to figure out how to make an E-flat instrument that large and yet play pretty well in tune, which is a whole lot like these modern era F instruments which tend to be built to sound like contrabass instruments, yet all feature wonky scales.

[York-aholic]

I agree with you Bloke. Handing them to Tpt players, scales, etc.

Interesting to note (at least on the 3 York Monster Eb's I've owned) that things get quite squirrely on them at about 1st & 3rd BBb. Isn't that the equivalent note as the dreaded low CC on an F tuba? (I know, give it what it wants. I haven't found that yet on a York Monster Eb. I also haven't ever played an F tuba). And yes, same tendency toward wonky intonation.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

I agree with you Bloke. Handing them to Tpt players, scales, etc.

Interesting to note (at least on the 3 York Monster Eb's I've owned) that things get quite squirrely on them at about 1st & 3rd BBb. Isn't that the equivalent note as the dreaded low CC on an F tuba? (I know, give it what it wants. I haven't found that yet on a York Monster Eb. I also haven't ever played an F tuba). And yes, same tendency toward wonky intonation.

It seems to me as though the common characteristic amongst many of them across the brands is that the second partial E-flat and D and the 8th partial E flat and D are all saggy/flat.

Not a brag, but I think I sort of have the B flat/C issue with the F and E flat instruments pretty much figured out...though admittedly there are one or two models that seem particularly wretched. As an example, I don't have any trouble playing the C on the old small Miraphone 180 models... I'm not trying to be a coach or instructive here, but it requires avoiding relaxing the embouchure and a really strong/accurate vibration. It might be a thing that sort of like mastering lip trills: ie. It doesn't come naturally, but it can be developed, but - if it's not developed - it won't be there. (??)
Also, shopping for an F instrument with a particularly forgiving low C often ends up with the player owning an instrument with a whole bunch of other difficult (tuning) problems. When the mouth is doing what it needs to do to produce those tones with surety, the sound may not be particularly pretty, but it will be solid.

back to tuning characteristics:
Some people may have had better luck than me, but it seems like the King and Buescher ones were just completely out of whack, as far as general intonation is concerned. Again, those are really good instruments to use for parts (bells, perhaps bottom bows, braces water keys) for contrabass tubas of the same makes.

[MiBrassFS]

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[arpthark]

I had one here briefly, on loan from a friend who let me check it out. Unusable scale, cool instrument. Weird tapers in the bugle, interestingly shaped bell. Out of all the early 20th century makers, Buescher is (IMO) the most unique in their designs. I had a really nice one of their recording bell BBbs for a while before I sold it to Don Butterfield’s son in law.

[bloke]

Ferree's Tools seems (??) to be slowly fading in the west yet sustaining itself with products that it designed and began manufacturing decades ago.

It seems to me that the perfect type of tool for them to have invented would be a thing that fits between vice jaws with a convex roller against another concave roller, and perhaps with interchangeable wheels to accommodate a couple of different sizes of rib material - along with a clamp and a hand grip to grab the end of a piece of tuba or sousaphone rib material. One would grease and insert the material in the device and pull it through, whereby the device would iron out all the dents. One would clean all the solder off first, and - to make it even easier - the dented rib material could be annealed prior to greasing it up and inserting it in the device... It would need some adjustable side rails to keep the material centered on the rollers, yes? Also, the rollers would need to be adjustable as far as how closely the concave articulates against the convex one. The really screwed up places would need to go through a few times - with additional tension each time - until they were finally ironed out completely.

I bet a bunch of y'all are thinking that this is a pretty good idea, and the rest of y'all are thinking that it's just another dumb idea that bloke had.

[MiBrassFS]

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[MiBrassFS]

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