Pistons vs. Rotors, a simple survey

[GC]

I use whatever's there and complain equally.

[akv]

Good is good, bad is bad - piston vs rotor is almost irrelevant. Most of my instruments have pistons and best valves I’ve ever used are on my 1919 Boosey Silbron cornet (pistons), but the next best are 1 and 2 on my tupperware tuba (rotary). Why they win is they’re adequately light and fast but have needed *absolutely* no attention for the 5 years I’ve had the tuba. The worst I’ve ever used are 3 and 4 on the same instrument, to which I had to take a hammer, this morning. Again. (see “plastic tuba valve woes” on the repairs & maintenance forum).

[Jperry1466]

My hand pain dictates I use small bore rotors.

Same for me. The rotary valves on my 184 CC work far better than pistons for my crooked arthritic fingers.

[humBell]

I'm holding out for box valves ever since read an article linked to the old forum...

(now i have to quest for that link once more... Been years upon years since i read that. Welp... No sleep for me.)

PS i think the forum allows for a multiple choice thing at the top of the thread and automatically updates if numbers are more convenient than the wide array of individuaized repaonses.

I also may consider some day trying a pile of open bugle tubas set up like a harmonica.

https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/201 ... tuba-in-b/

I guess i get to sleep after all... at least a little.

[humBell]

I have no preference whatsoever.

…

(Obligatory Gondoliers response:)

"Listen to him! Well, I never!

Thank you gallant gondolieri
in a set and formal measure
it is hardly necessary
to express our pleasure" etc...

and this is where i learned the term "hemiola"...

[prodigal]

I guess part of my bias is on using second-pistons that have been "lapped" to the previous users' hand position(s) by their finger and hand placement. So, it seems that I had to approximate the previous users posture, whether good or bad. Rotors negated this for me, but YMMV.

I still use a lot of oil in my 1960 186CC and my brand new Cerveny 653. I use the bloke method, fresh lamp oil (or kerosene) plus added flavorings (ATF) for color. Oil this way is quite cheap, so I use it in large quantities, plus the oily spitrag makes a great firestarter in the woodburning insert.

Another bias, at last visually, rotary horns look fascinating. All of that machinery! Which is great until your first valve bumper flies off in the middle of rehearsal and bounces up into the trombones and you get one of those "what are you doing?!" moments from the conductor as you panic looking for the little neoprene thingy!

In terms of oils, I once forgot oil for my Buescher hybrid Sousa at a Fireman's parade back in the day. A quick dip of a stick into the diesel tank on a firetruck got some level of speed back for me, although it was quit an "aromatic" hydrocarbon. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[bloke]

I'm not sure that pistons get lapped via player hand position.

I would tend to suspect that they are dropped on the floor a few times each from being oiled while the instrument is sitting in someone's lap, rather than set on a table.

Rotors don't get taken out to be oiled, so they don't get bent or dinged up.

When buying a piston tuba, it might be a good idea to look at their go to mouthpiece and see what condition it's in.

[prodigal]

Good advice! (Granted, my 186CC isn't winning any beauty contests visually. I think she sounds wonderful, though!)

[Casca Grossa]

My hand pain dictates I use small bore rotors.

Same for me. The rotary valves on my 184 CC work far better than pistons for my crooked arthritic fingers.

My 184 has been great for me. There are other horns I wish I could play, but I cn make mine work just fine.

[humBell]

I'm holding out for box valves ever since read an article linked to the old forum...

(now i have to quest for that link once more... Been years upon years since i read that. Welp... No sleep for me.)

PS i think the forum allows for a multiple choice thing at the top of the thread and automatically updates if numbers are more convenient than the wide array of individuaized repaonses.

I also may consider some day trying a pile of open bugle tubas set up like a harmonica.

https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/201 ... tuba-in-b/

I guess i get to sleep after all... at least a little.

Ah... the age old conundrum... to quote myself, or to edit my post.

Reading the link above (sleep was well... welcome) i neglected to make a potential connection noticing the author of the blog...
@TheBerlinerTuba is that your blog? I gotta say i've read entries now and again, and it is a fantastic one.

Any news on this particular tuba in the past 9 years?

[Casca Grossa]

My hand pain dictates I use small bore rotors.

Same for me. The rotary valves on my 184 CC work far better than pistons for my crooked arthritic fingers.

My 184 has been great for me. There are other horns I wish I could play, but I can make mine work just fine.

[bloke]

I showed up with a rotary tuba once to play with a jazz band, and was told that I had to go home.

[Mary Ann]

I found the box valve pictures interesting, but -- can you say "stuffy?" That would be an assumption.

Tuesday on my right I had a college student with a Yamaha 4 valve piston Eb (321?) with the bell pointing the other way. I offered to let him try the NStar, he did without any enthusiasm, offered to let me try the Yam as a courtesy, and I said nope my hands are too small for pistons. Nothing quite like getting your finger stuck in between two pistons when you are slamming along trying to play fast. Plus they take more effort on a tuba, which matters to me at this point in my ongoing physical downslope. (At least I still have all my original joints and have avoided arthritis through dietary means.)

[humBell]

I showed up with a rotary tuba once to play with a jazz band, and was told that I had to go home.

Don't leave us hanging... did you make it home?

[humBell]

I found the box valve pictures interesting, but -- can you say "stuffy?" That would be an assumption.

Tuesday on my right I had a college student with a Yamaha 4 valve piston Eb (321?) with the bell pointing the other way. I offered to let him try the NStar, he did without any enthusiasm, offered to let me try the Yam as a courtesy, and I said nope my hands are too small for pistons. Nothing quite like getting your finger stuck in between two pistons when you are slamming along trying to play fast. Plus they take more effort on a tuba, which matters to me at this point in my ongoing physical downslope. (At least I still have all my original joints and have avoided arthritis through dietary means.)

How'd they sound on the star? And just in case other Bostonians are confused... NStar in this context refers i believe to a model if Miraphone tuba more properly called a Norwegian Star, not the former power company that is now Eversource.

But per the blog, apparently those box valves don't play so stuffy. Just one more weird thing about 'em.

[Tubeast]

I have and use and love both.
That being said-

I had to spend serious practising hours on a fat folder of alpine beerfest music in order to sub for a local band.
(search facebook and/or instagram for "Muvukanten" to get an idea)

The piston-valved 2011 FA was the horn of choice, and I´m still having sore forearm muscles from long valve stroke and high spring tension, 2 1/2 months later. This is no fun and it kept me from sticking with what I call my workout routine.
(combination of light dumbbell work and rowing, which both relies on prolonged gripping action at medium intensity)
A need to be easy on gripping movement does NOT help at all!

With rotaries in perfect shape, the mechanical side of things seems a lot more old-fart-compatible.

[prodigal]

I found the box valve pictures interesting, but -- can you say "stuffy?" That would be an assumption.

Tuesday on my right I had a college student with a Yamaha 4 valve piston Eb (321?) with the bell pointing the other way. I offered to let him try the NStar, he did without any enthusiasm, offered to let me try the Yam as a courtesy, and I said nope my hands are too small for pistons. Nothing quite like getting your finger stuck in between two pistons when you are slamming along trying to play fast. Plus they take more effort on a tuba, which matters to me at this point in my ongoing physical downslope. (At least I still have all my original joints and have avoided arthritis through dietary means.)

Wait, he got to try a NStar, and did so without enthusiasm? What's the matter with kids these days? Was he afraid that he would sound great?

Well, in defense: maybe he was afraid that he'd like it and be stuck wanting one.

[Mary Ann]

I couldn't give a "review" of how he sounded on the NStar (Norwegian Star; both of us regulars on Eb play one) but I don't know if he was trying not to show off or just not very interested. A college kid (even though probly a grad student) surrounded by a whole lot of old fogies who have been playing together forever can have some trepidation about how to interact, and he had not met me before. Both Eb players missed the last rehearsal, which was the first one he was at, and reports were that he sounded very good. So -- your guess is as good as mine.

[Stryk]

In college, I bought my first horn which was a rotary horn - I had never played one. It took some time to get used to. Now, most of my good horns are rotary because I am now more used to that. I don't seem to have any issue playing valved horns, however. I think it's just what we become accustomed to - a good horn is a good horn.

[bloke]

Compared to a 6/4 yorkaphone - whether C length or B flat length, I've found that my hybrid Miraphone instrument (with basically a yorkophone bell and conical bore taper) has the >>potential<< for more "burn" in the sound (if I desire it) with the 21.2mm bore and its rotor valve set versus the 19mm in the typical Yorkaphone piston valve set.

I was trying to demonstrate that in a church gig video that I very recently linked to this site.

A 19mm bore paired with a big 6/4 instrument with a wide bell offers a pretty easy playing experience, but - even when the gas pedal is pushed to the floor with those instruments - the sound is usually still somewhat "covered", and I'm not sure that we >>always<< want a covered type of sound at full volume. It's nice to have the choice of controlling the sonority at full volume with one's own playing strategies - rather than being limited to the color of the full volume sonority via one's instrument.

To be more clear, with the larger bore (a bore size range which is not available with pistons), I can still easily imitate the typical sonority of a 19 mm bore 6/4 yorkophone tapered tuba, or - via altering my air and embouchure - I can bring forth more high overtones in the sound that are typically easier to produce with smaller tubas.

So... Even if you disagree with everything I outlined above, it's undeniable that piston valves have a bore limitation that rotary valves do not have - the largest bore pistons found being 19.5mm, and with far more of them being limited to 19mm.