Don't play sharp.

[bloke]

I try not to click on videos of people playing trombone/euphonium/tuba, but - when I click many of them for just a moment - a ton of them are playing sharp to either their accompanying pianist's instrument or to the accompanying band or orchestra.

I know very few names of very few so-called renowned players these days, but the ones I click on are supposedly on these lists.

It doesn't sound good to play sharp. My ears perk up when a soloist is playing or singing "down in" the pitch. Even with ~not~ the most amazing resonance qualities, "not sharp" ~always~ sounds so much better.

It sounds particularly bad to play a tuba solo sharp with a piano accompaniment, because the piano strings in the tuba range are intentionally tuned flat.

[bloke]

Okay...
I should follow up negative with a positive:

Many of you probably know who Jeremy Wilson is.
Perhaps ten years ago, I heard him play a trombone concerto with an orchestra. Not only does he play at pitch, but he understands phrasing. What a pleasure!

(The fact that he cut his teeth playing in the Vienna Philharmonic - as well as having to learn to play "inside" their tuning - may well explain his deep understanding of phrasing.)

[JC2]

Ideally aim to be perfectly in tune, but otherwise better to be slightly sharp than the slightest bit flat.

The piano - tuba blend/intonation is tough one to get exactly right. The piano is really quite horribly out of tune. I think we’re all so used to it that it’s not as noticeable anymore. The thirds are something like 13 cents too high for major thirds and vice versa for minor thirds. Dominant 7ths are more like 30 cents too sharp. My numbers are approximate. Definitely takes a bit of practice finding the pitch centre when the ‘in tune’ isn’t actually perfectly in tune.

It’s interesting how the higher winds and brass often play sharp in the orchestra. I’ve actually been to a masterclass where a principal flute has equated playing passages sharper for a ‘brighter’ sound and flatter for a ‘darker’ sound. This wasn’t universally popular to say the least.

[bloke]

better to be slightly sharp than the slightest bit flat.

You will do what you will do.
We'll never be on the same gig, so I'm fine with that.

What you said, above, is actually an old trumpet player joke.

[JC2]

Better to be sharp than out of tune? Haha

There is a some truth to it though, sharp is bad but flat is worse.

Ideally, just play in tune like I said.

[bloke]

Pianos are tuned, so they're technically not "out of tune" unless they're not tuned as pianos are customarily tuned.
They're certainly not tuned using equal temperament, because that would sound terrible. They are tuned to "favor" (come pretty close to tuning) perfect fifths with respect to A above middle C being tuned (at least, in the United States) to 440 hz.

Descending from that pitch, respecting open fifths (which - when perfect - are wider than equal temperament) defines that tuning becomes flatter and flatter and - ascending from that pitch respecting open fifths - defines that tuning becomes sharper and sharper. A well-tuned piano lowest a is (referencing the tuned at 440 hz) usually about 30 hundreds of a semitone flat whereas the highest C on the piano is usually about 20 hundredths of a semitone sharp...ie. a quarter-tone away from each other, hertz-wise (but not tuning-wise).

I guess an instrumentalist could ignore how a piano is tuned and either stare at their electronic tuner or play where they think a pitch should be or just play what they feel or any of that sort of thing, but it's not going to sound very nice. When playing a solo piece with piano accompaniment, a chamber piece, or a piano concerto, I strive to play in tune with the piano, and - since everything I play (in virtually every piece that I ever play) is below A above middle C - when playing with a piano I'm either playing slightly flat, somewhat flat, or quite flat (depending on how high or low in my own range I'm playing), so that I am in tune. I just don't see how I could just be a pig and either stick with something like mean tone, equal temperament, or "where my horn likes to play it" and superimpose any of those sorts of things over the piano which has no way to alter tuning on the fly.

It's not uncommon to find me playing in a little jazz combo somewhere with a acoustic piano or an electronic piano (that's tuned like an acoustic piano). I always tune to the piano. By the way, I also tune the four strings of my electric bass a bit flat, but I don't tune the open strings quite as flat as those pitches on the piano keyboard, because - since I'm mostly playing around third position and not uncommonly in fifth position - tuning the open strings in tune with a piano is not the best compromise. If there's a guitar player playing as well, they never complain, and none of the wind players ever complain... I wonder why not? (because I'm a big ugly ogre, and they're scared of me...??)

... one parenthetical thing about tuning a string bass or electric bass in just a bit flat in order to be in tune with the piano and actually with anything:
In a jazz setting, virtually everything is pizzicato, and an electronic tuner tells us that - when we are striking the string - at that instant the the string is stretched as well as the amplitude being higher, which also teases the pitch higher. Our colleagues and our patrons hear that first sound much more than they hear the decay, so they're going to hear that higher pitch and pretty much dismiss the rest of the sound until we play another pitch. Tuning to the pizzicato (first sound) pitch is probably a pretty good idea.

There are a lot of words (okay I voice texted it, but still) above.
Needless to say I've put a lot of thought into this, particular since my background is as a guitar player - where we actually have all sorts of slightly different ways that we tune the six strings, even when we tune them to the standard EADGBE (depending on what chords we're going to be playing and what keys were going to be playing in). I don't have a full-time job playing anywhere, but - everywhere I play - I'm paid to do so. It's important to me that - when I show up - other people think, "Oh good it's him. This is going to be easy" vs. "Oh no, it's 'mystery tuning night' again."... because I like to be hired back again.

[JC2]

Pianos are tuned, so they're technically not "out of tune" unless they're not tuned as pianos are customarily tuned.
They're certainly not tuned using equal temperament, because that would sound terrible. They are tuned to "favor" (come pretty close to tuning) perfect fifths with respect to A above middle C being tuned (at least, in the United States) to 440 hz.

Descending from that pitch, respecting open fifths (which - when perfect - are wider than equal temperament) defines that tuning becomes flatter and flatter and - ascending from that pitch respecting open fifths - defines that tuning becomes sharper and sharper. A well-tuned piano lowest a is (referencing the tuned at 440 hz) usually about 30 hundreds of a semitone flat whereas the highest C on the piano is usually about 20 hundredths of a semitone sharp...ie. a quarter-tone away from each other, hertz-wise (but not tuning-wise).

I guess an instrumentalist could ignore how a piano is tuned and either stare at their electronic tuner or play where they think a pitch should be or just play what they feel or any of that sort of thing, but it's not going to sound very nice. When playing a solo piece with piano accompaniment, a chamber piece, or a piano concerto, I strive to play in tune with the piano, and - since everything I play (in virtually every piece that I ever play) is below A above middle C - when playing with a piano I'm either playing slightly flat, somewhat flat, or quite flat (depending on how high or low in my own range I'm playing), so that I am in tune. I just don't see how I could just be a pig and either stick with something like mean tone, equal temperament, or "where my horn likes to play it" and superimpose any of those sorts of things over the piano which has no way to alter tuning on the fly.

It's not uncommon to find me playing in a little jazz combo somewhere with a acoustic piano or an electronic piano (that's tuned like an acoustic piano). I always tune to the piano. By the way, I also tune the four strings of my electric bass a bit flat, but I don't tune the open strings quite as flat as those pitches on the piano keyboard, because - since I'm mostly playing around third position and not uncommonly in fifth position - tuning the open strings in tune with a piano is not the best compromise. If there's a guitar player playing as well, they never complain, and none of the wind players ever complain... I wonder why not? (because I'm a big ugly ogre, and they're scared of me...??)

Yes you’re correct about the way a piano is tuned. I believe the reason the bass and treble are stretched (as far as I am aware) is for two reasons:

1. To get the perfects 5ths slightly wider, closer to just intonation. Equal tempered 5ths are only 2c too low. Just like you said.

2. The strings have a tendency to go slightly sharp as they decay. This problem is significantly worse the smaller the piano gets and the shorter the strings (very obvious on a small upright) The explanation I’ve heard is because the vibrating string tends to be dampened first at the tension points, the vibrating area gets shorter as it decays.

A piano still is tuned very much in equal temperament though, even with the ends stretched. It’s mathematically impossible for every interval to sound pure. The 3rds/6ths 2nds/7ths are inevitable going to be quite far away from just intonation.

A pipe organ essentially has very similar tuning and you’ve heard how shrill they sound with the 3rds and 7ths grinding away. It’s just a bit more obvious on an organ, but a piano is that out of tune too.

Agreed that you have to go with the pianos intonation, of course there’s nothing they can do about it.

Anyway, none of this really matters to play in tune. Just go with your ears, which I’m sure you do. I’ve heard you’re a pretty good player from all accounts.

[bloke]

Sure we use our ears, but then there's our (at least "main") tuning slides.

I also use my skin, to sense whether it's about 73° (a typical institutional temperature setting), whether it's chili like 69° or 70° or whether it's warm like 79°.

If I don't adjust my main tuning slide (particularly with my really large tuba, which not only encloses a column of vibrating air, but also acts as a radiator) to adjust for room temperature > or for the fact that I'm playing with a piano <, I'm going to be fighting my instrument, and - when I'm fighting my instrument - I'm not going to play as well.

I've never experienced vibrating strings pitch rising as the vibration decays, but I'm wide open to new experiences.

When the temperature starts getting closer to 80° or when I'm playing along with a piano, I know that I'm going to have to pull my tinting slide out ... unless I prefer to fight my instrument.

First for a couple of years, a principal horn player was hired to play with one of the per-service workers with which which I was working.
Just listening to them, I could tell that they habitually played with their instrument set too short. A characteristic of their playing was that they would attack high and then the pitch would settle down (if a pitch lasted longer than an instant or so). Another characteristic was that they missed pitches' attacks more often than most good principal horn players (because it's very difficult to attack a pitch down where it belongs when the instrument is too short).

It's really easy to play higher than where pitches sound best. It's what the majority of instrumentalists do, at least based on what I hear...

...and I do believe that a large percentage of instrumentalists suffer from flatophobia. They tend to tune their instruments to the pitch or pitches on their instrument which play the flattest without favoring, because they view "playing flat" as the worst embarrassment that anyone could suffer. In reality, it's usually far easier to sharpen flat sounds on instruments (which are capable of being favored by manipulating the embouchure) than to flatten sharp sounds on such instruments.

[MiBrassFS]

.

[bloke]

What was said earlier is true. Piano tuning is a combination of equal temperament and "stretch" tuning, so it is distorted equal temperament in favor of tuning the fifths. Thirds and sixths - played on pianos - do not ring "true".
When we're sitting in the back trying to play perfect intervals in low brass chords (tuning thirds and sixths) in piano concerto's (while the piano is playing), we're playing out of tune with the piano, and causing more dissonance than we are alleviating, so we're really not "accompanying" when we do that.

[gocsick]

Just my opinion from the peanut gallery... but I don't think anyone has helped my playing as a amateur button masher more than regular drone work.

I really like two exercises

1) Play a drone (I like cello drones over tuner) .. say C then play long time arpeggios over the drone.. normally I do Dom7 but sometimes I do minor or other chords, inversions, or add upper extensions. Then just work my way around the circle of 5ths.

2) Pick a key.. Okay a drone of the tonic of the key... Then play arpeggios of all the diatonic chords in that key. You get to work all the intervals this way.

Putting the tuner away and using my ears instead was key. I find I have tendency to be good going to but to be sharp when descending.. and it would take me a second to fall back into the root when I landed. Always something to work on.

[bloke]

Drones and arpeggios help teach us to learn the sounds of pure intervals.

Learning equal temperament intervals (which are remarkably out of tune with pure intervals) as well as learning how to play flatter as we play lower... This is a completely different ball of wax.

Most modern western music...
(okay... outside of hip hop)
... Involves instruments playing with a stretch tuned / equal temperament keyboard instrument.

Our little corner of the world - bands and orchestras - is a microscopic sector of western music...yet probably at least 40% - or perhaps half - of orchestral music involves having a piano on stage (whether it's a church orchestra, a pops concert, or a piano concerto). Playing in tune with a piano is a pretty complicated skill. A band or orchestra can drown out the innate intonation of a piano - particularly in the range below middle C and even during loud tutti passages of a piano concerto, but I really don't view that as a good goal.

I might suggest sitting on the bench of a well tuned piano and playing some major, minor, diminished, and augmented chords in the range below A (440), and listening to how they sound.
They're not "pretty", but they are what they are, and the only choice is for us to adjust to that tuning. It certainly can't adjust to us.

[Mary Ann]

What I like about playing strings "solo" is that you can lock in the intervals and have beatless double stops.

[Schlitzz]

Meanwhile in the viola section.......

[bloke]

Meanwhile in the viola section.......

Sight-reading a viola part to a Mozart symphony on euphonium or baritone horn (no bow, no fret-free fingerboard, just three or four buttons to mash), and then get back with me.
If you are sorta proud of the job you did, then try an R. Strauss tone poem.

[JC2]

Just my opinion from the peanut gallery... but I don't think anyone has helped my playing as a amateur button masher more than regular drone work.

I really like two exercises

1) Play a drone (I like cello drones over tuner) .. say C then play long time arpeggios over the drone.. normally I do Dom7 but sometimes I do minor or other chords, inversions, or add upper extensions. Then just work my way around the circle of 5ths.

2) Pick a key.. Okay a drone of the tonic of the key... Then play arpeggios of all the diatonic chords in that key. You get to work all the intervals this way.

Putting the tuner away and using my ears instead was key. I find I have tendency to be good going to but to be sharp when descending.. and it would take me a second to fall back into the root when I landed. Always something to work on.

+1 for drones. I’ve started doing this daily this year to keep myself honest.

[bloke]

Again, I agree with that, but teaching oneself how to hear perfect intervals is not that difficult, because nature assists us in hearing them.
What's difficult is tuning to major thirds which are imperfectly sharp and minor thirds that are imperfectly flat, or major and minor sixths that are the opposite...these occurring with keyboard tuning.

Perfect fourths are also challenging, because they really aren't perfect, being that they are inverted fifths.

A lot of pop music horn harmonies involve fourths, with no one playing the root because that's in the keyboard and the bass.

[Schlitzz]

Sight-reading a viola part to a Mozart symphony on euphonium or baritone horn (no bow, no fret-free fingerboard, just three or four buttons to mash), and then get back with me.
If you are sorta proud of the job you did, then try an R. Strauss tone poem.

I was just going to give them a melodic technical excerpt, with three flats.

[bloke]

yeah...
Viola jokes are sort of "traditional", but - comparing what they routinely do in an orchestra to what we routinely do in an orchestra - that's yet another joke...and the butts of that joke are the tuba players.

[JC2]

Again, I agree with that, but teaching oneself how to hear perfect intervals is not that difficult, because nature assists us in hearing them.
What's difficult is tuning to major thirds which are imperfectly sharp and minor thirds that are imperfectly flat, or major and minor sixths that are the opposite...these occurring with keyboard tuning.

Perfect fourths are also challenging, because they really aren't perfect, being that they are inverted fifths.

A lot of pop music horn harmonies involve fourths, with no one playing the root because that's in the keyboard and the bass.

Agreed! Learning to play with piano in equal temperament is a skill.