Das Kaiser, ja?

[prodigal]

So, I'm loving playing my 1960 186-CC. So, for you guys who play the big horns, or the medium (like mine) and large horns, what are the advantages of a bigger horn.

I'm playing in a community band (huge shout out to Heavy_Metal, our section leader!) So a Kaiser BBb would probably make more sense than a 6/4 CC, but I did love trying out a PT-6 rotary back in the day....but they seem to be made of unobtainium these days.

Just wondering. No need to upgrade now, but you know down the road behind the 6/4 F tuba someday..

[catgrowlB]

I guess the advantage of a big horn like a Kaiser BBb is the big, deep, brooding sound. And maybe the somewhat intimidating appearance they have

I'd still play my Kaiser BBb every now and then. But the college I helped out at had 'retired' the good, old-school band director who built up the entire band program there.
Now, the new dipsh!t director has pretty much run that band program into the ground because he will not have or hire any guest/'ringer' musicians, and only has a handful of student players there for whatever ensembles they have. There are not nearly enough players there to fill all needed parts for a proper wind ensemble or even big band. It is truly sad and pathetic now

Anyway, I used my big Kaiser BBb for graduation in band with the old director, and also in orchestra previously on some concerts. I still have it, and it was great for that. I'd say they are special-use horns that you use on large works, or if you are the only tuba, or just 2 tubas in a large wind band. It's ultimately up to what sound/blend you are going for.

Probably the easiest to obtain Kaiser BBb's are one of those big Cerveny BBb Kaisers that float around every now and then.

[MiBrassFS]

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[York-aholic]

Große Tuben machen Spaß. Ich brauche keinen anderen Grund.

That’s what it’s all about, right.

[bloke]

general comments:

The version of the C model 86 begins to lose this characteristic, but the B-flat 86 is basically a 4/4 version of the kaiser design whereas the Meinl-Weston 25 is a 5/4 version of the kaiser design.

The 6/4 kaiser instruments mostly have a lot of similarities, though of course there are some that are different (just as with all other things).
They tend to be at least 40 inches tall, with some of them being a few inches taller. They tend to feature bells that don't widen out very much, offering a somewhat throaty sound. This is a type of sound that tends to be heard from where it originates, rather than seeming to originate from everywhere (more like a trombone type of sonic experience, with the difference being that the bell points up, so that experience is tempered somewhat).

They also often seem to sport similar tuning characteristics (from one make to the next) whereby the fifth partial d is often pretty good, the second valve d flat is often flat, the tuning for first valve c is quite flat (with hopefully there being enough first valve slide adjustment to temper this, and then B natural isn't quite as bad as C (due to the math) but also the first valve slide adjustment thing). Yes, other designs and other models feature these characteristics, but tuning characteristics as described just previously seem to be particularly predictable with the kaiser B flats, and they seem to transfer to the kaiser baritones (as perhaps those bore tapers are similar but just half the size).

B&S and Cerveny (I'm talking about before tons of these were shipped to the United States, before PT, and before Custom Music) built versions with wider bells, so the sonic experience with those was/is a bit different, but most everything else about them is similar to what's described above.

I personally played around with a classic kaiser for a couple of years. The intonation thing in the fifth partial as described (which tends to be much more severe as with a lot of models today whereby some of these pictures can almost be favored with the embouchure) I found to be a pretty significant stumbling block.

As I've talked about it so much on this site, many know that more recently I've been playing a hybrid instrument which has some characteristics of a classic kaiser B flat (very long mouth pipe, which expands to over 8/10 of an inch, very large size overall, and a very large bore with rotary valves), but other things are different, including the bell on my instrument being just about exactly the same size and taper and length as a Holton 345 bell, and the bottom bow on my instrument being larger than a 345 bottom bow (which also transfers to the top branch being larger than a 345 top branch). As odd as is the physical appearance of my instrument (almost reminiscent of Rube Goldberg) - which would indicate an instrument that probably doesn't work at all, it's the easiest to play in tune of all the really large tubas I've ever played as well as quite easy to play legato, as I've owned quite a few 6/4 C models and a couple of others in B-flat, and found that - when I practiced at home playing those instruments - I was mostly going through drills concentrating on intonation workarounds, whereby - when I'm playing this instrument - I rarely do that, and I'm mostly concentrating on playing music and etudes.

[MiBrassFS]

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[Schlitzz]

You play what fits in the car, and what you can carry around. As you get older, they will be smaller, and lighter. When people say watch your back, it’s a reminder to use your legs.

[Sousaswag]

Sound, sound, sound. You can learn a horn and play it in tune, provided any quirks are manageable. But, the reason so many play the big horns is for the sound.

And, well, to make everyone else jealous.

[bloke]

Sound, sound, sound. You can learn a horn and play it in tune, provided any quirks are manageable. But, the reason so many play the big horns is for the sound.

And, well, to make everyone else jealous.

Tuning tuning tuning.
Most various tuba sonority characteristics are acceptable to most ensembles and music directors, as as long as those sounds are in tune. You can learn to make it a mediocre instrument sound pretty good as long as it has easy tuning characteristics whereby otherwise overcoming difficult ones don't distract from playing the music.

[Heavy_Metal]

@prodigal , as long as everyone's in tune, we're good. You have plenty of firepower on your 186!

[prodigal]

You play what fits in the car, and what you can carry around. As you get older, they will be smaller, and lighter. When people say watch your back, it’s a reminder to use your legs.

Not a problem with the car, I've got a few old pickups!

Granted, when I was hauling the 186 and 653 I was wondering how little my 09.F150 with 220K was vs. the horns riding in it!

[prodigal]

@prodigal , as long as everyone's in tune, we're good. You have plenty of firepower on your 186!

She is definitely a cannon! I'm loving it more every note!

[York-aholic]

@prodigal , as long as everyone's in tune, we're good. You have plenty of firepower on your 186!

There’s a lot to be said for that. Groups that are in tune certainly sound louder or project more or something else than groups with less in tune-ness.

[bloke]

sorry to triggered by the "sound" thing.
I've gone through a whole bunch of contrabass tubas over the years.
I bought some for sound and some for price.
Buying for intonation has - by far - been the best.

There are some tubas but I'm sure I would pass over due to their sound characteristics, but many of those also probably don't feature particularly good intonation characteristics.

Someone can say that any tuba plays perfectly in tune because it's the player who makes it play in tune, but any car with four wheels that turn can also be driven towards a destination - as long as it's downhill all the way. Moving a first valve slide can become subconscious, but alternate fingerings (and I'm including fifth partial in this), epic favoring, or constantly moving a main slide are just too distracting, at least to me. There just aren't other wind players who would tolerate what tuba players tolerate in regards to the intonation characteristics of many of the models offered on the market.

[catgrowlB]

^ I'd say getting a Kaiser BBb is about sound, though. Just like you got that big Miraphone 6/4 BBb for a reason; otherwise you'd play your B&S F on everything, which would be boring and inadequate in some music. That's why you have different tubas for different 'sound roles', whether you want to admit it or not. Finding them with good or workable intonation is just part of it.

Admittedly, the only true Kaiser BBb I've tried is the one I have. It is a huge rotary BBb with a very large 21" bell with a very wide/open throat, 42" tall, and an .850" valve bore. No makers name on the horn, but thought to possibly be a B&F. The open notes have excellent pitch -- no saggy 3rd or 5th partial or anything. Just some 1rst slide pull for Eb's and D below the staff (or just use 3rd valve, depending). The only 'weird' thing about it is that the 4th valve circuit is a half-step higher than a typical 4th valve. But then again, it is ancient and built when that wasn't as standardized as later horns.
Despite its huge size, it is incredibly flexible and responsive, and has a huge deep voice. It kinda sounds like an old handmade BBb rotary version of a Yorkbrunner
Other, more modern big BBb tubas actually sound/project a little louder, but have a 'harder' sound that is less 'sweet' in color...

[Sousaswag]

It’s not the conductors we purchase these tubas for. It’s us. And I’d argue most do buy a big tuba because they like the way it sounds. Intonation is very important to you. And intonation should be a big part of purchasing a tuba.

But when we’re talking about why one buys a Kaiser, or a 6/4 in general, it’s almost always because they like or want the type of sonority offered by that instrument, regardless of who they’re playing for.

[bloke]

A whole bunch of those made throughout the last century were probably good enough for marching with a braided rope over ones shoulder, but to call on most of them to easily achieve much more is expecting a bit too much.

Some of us think we're wealthy, others of us think we're poor, but all any of us really has is time. A tuba which requires less time (via requiring fewer hours of practice drills) to have to invest in playing it in order to play very well... That's an important tuba.

When I'm working with a new bass trombone player and - after a tune or two in the rehearsal - I hear him whisper to the second trombone player "this is going to be easy ". It's important to me that people come to that conclusion.

[MiBrassFS]

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[hbcrandy]

During my 45-year playing career, I played 2 Kaiser CC tubas at different times, a V. F. Cerveny and a 5/4 Rudolph Meinl. I loved both of them but, as a freelance artist, I found a good middle of the road 4/4 tuba got me you everywhere I needed to go. Your Miraphone 186 is that type of tuba. It will work in everything from a 90-piece symphony orchestra to brass quintet engagements and everything in between. The super big equipment has limited application for very large ensembles playing in very large halls.

Bill Bell and joe Novotny, formerly of the New York Philharmonic and Abraham Torchinsky, formerly of the Philadelphia Orchestra played King rotary valved CC tubas with a .687" valve bore (much narrower than the Kaiser .835" valve bore) and could still be heard quite well in their respective orchestras.

[prodigal]

Don't worry everyone, I'm not giving up on my 186CC. In fact, the more I play it, the more I like it. It has, as bloke would describe a "throaty" sound that wasn't there on my circa 1998 186CC, you can still sound big, full, and rich, but if you need some of the Mirafone "bite," it's there in spades! I would like the first valve vented sometime, as it still has lots of compression over these years, but that's my only complaint. The wife doesn't especially like that I smell like metal again, but at least my hands don't look like the Hulk's yet.


Maybe I'll let my son use it someday, but he'll have to earn it!