.

[MiBrassFS]

.

[UncleBeer]

From years of hearing stories of Harvey while in NYC, he seems to have been a prolific, flexible freelancer (which is pretty much the job description). This, while holding down his gig with the NYC Ballet Orchestra.

I think teachers now don't dare teach stuff they never learned, which is a shame. It's never too late to pick up marketable skills which can be passed along to students. I understand that academia is the lazy man's route (paper-shuffling, politics, etc) but I'd like to think a teacher with a conscience would up his game whenever possible to the benefit of promising students.

[graybach]

Having known a number of his students and spoken with them about Harvey Phillips and his teaching, one common theme has been his message of being open to a much broader range of jobs/careers related to (as well as not…) playing the tuba and music in general. To me, it just seemed like common sense. Chances are all these tuba (and euphonium…) students in universities around the world are not going to be playing full time for a living.

Are teachers afraid of losing students (and their jobs) if they talk about anything other than orchestra jobs?

Do they just not have enough first hand knowledge outside of academia and this unlikely orchestra career path?

Who IS teaching in a similar manner to Harvey Phillips and emphasizing varied options today? Did your teacher(s) do this?

Why isn’t considering varied options the standard in tuba/euph instruction?

Or, has Harvey Phillips just become a historical tuba figure who is only remembered for guarding the “TUBACHRISTMAS®” brand?

If they even know who Harvey Phillips is, he’s just a historical figure who guarded TubaChristmas. Especially now, most people’s perception of history starts from the day they were born and moves forward. They neither know nor care where they came from. It wouldn’t hurt to teach an appreciation of history and one’s roots as well.

As a general rule, the business side of anything is not taught in universities. There are scattered examples in the tuba/euphonium world.
I couldn’t find the post, because the person who posted is no longer on Facebook, but it was one of Dave Fedderly’s students from Julliard who put out a post in the pandemic and thanked Mr. Fedderly, because Mr. Fedderly apparently taught the business side of it, I.e., not putting all your eggs in one basket. That person said he had food on his table during the pandemic because of what Dave Fedderly taught him about diversifying one’s skillset.
And if I remember correctly, Pat Sheridan has a masters degree in business from the University of Michigan.

It’s sad that those are the scattered examples of people having anything to do with the business side of music. Because they’re such a glut of musicians out there that most people‘s chances of succeeding as a professional musician are infinitesimally small. Universities are diploma factories.

I just got out of teaching music. I should’ve never gotten in it. I loved playing the tuba, ate, breathed, slept, everything else, the tuba when I was in middle school and high school and somewhat in university.

But, I was advised to “get an education degree and fall back on teaching in case performing didn’t work out.“ That’s absolutely terrible advice. There’s a huge difference between playing the tuba and teaching music.

And I hated teaching. I was not cut out for all the bulls**t that goes on in the classroom, (e.g., children assaulting another child and administrators sending them back to my classroom 10 minutes later with chips and a drink), plus dealing with administrators who were there because they couldn’t teach and failed upwards. I ended my music teaching career teaching Pre-K and kindergarten, and I seriously had some 3, 4, and 5-year-olds that had more common sense than those aforementioned various administrators who failed upwards.

I should have taken my high school math teacher’s advice and played the tuba for enjoyment, and had a different career that put food on the table that I liked doing. I might still be playing if I did that.I haven’t played the tuba in a number of years because I played so much in university that I got sick of even looking at it. And I learned most of what I learned about teaching by doing it, not by sitting in a classroom and hearing what teaching was going to be like.

That said, I had a great high school band director and great main studio teacher from university, both of whom I stay in regular contact with. Both are great mentors who put up with a very young, stupid version of me, and were very patient doing it, and taught me a lot of life lessons that I can apply to things other than music as well. We call and message several times a year, but I’m doing something completely outside of music now. And not playing at all. The extent of my involvement in the tuba world is reading this forum and occasionally watching videos on YouTube and other social media.
I wish it had turned out differently.

[dsfinley]

I would argue 99% of students majoring in performance today won’t make a dime playing their instrument.

[bloke]

It seems to me that a red flag (if deciding to spend money on attending a university and choosing a "major") is when the only jobs - in a particular "major" field - involve teaching that "major" to the next generation at a university.

Harvey - prior to being offered his "retirement" job at Indiana U - lived in a completely different time and place (and something tells me that his tenure in NYC did not involve "luxurious accommodations").

Even in Memphis, Tennessee, I lived during the tail end of those (similar to Harvey Phillips in NYC) times...Those were pretty good times for free-lance, and (semi-)steady gig musicians, but obviously they didn't last. Probably the DUMBEST thing I did - when all of that was going strong - was to leave town for a year and teach tuba lessons at a large university (which cost me considerable income, as well as savings). When I returned home, I was (learning/floundering at first, as the owners of the shop had day gigs, so it was "you're own your own; figure it out) working full-time at a repair shop, and (believe this or don't believe it) working approximately 55 - 60 hours each week (mostly nights/weekends, but occasionally closing the shop for an hour or two to play daytime gigs) rehearsing, performing, or recording music.

To Harvey's credit, I believe he saw that those times (particularly when tuba players left school and returned to their medium-size hometown cities) were coming to an end - thus (in his messaging - when he would speak to groups of students) would not spend all that much time discussing "mastering excerpts", and "how to audition for orchestras". Most orchestra pay has dropped (actual numbers of dollars) before and since the last four years of epic money-printing (whereby money is (suddenly - rather than gradually, as in the past) now worth about half.

My son-in-law plays horn in the Pittsburgh Symphony. Were it not for SERIOUS side-hustles and my daughter (seven years of music conservatory training herself) charging people (actually: good) money to clean their houses during the weekdays (when her kids are in school) as well as doing online work for the family business, they would probably have to live in very modest housing and be on some sort of "relief". They've told our grandchildren, "There's no money for any of you to go to 'college'. If any of you choose that path, you're going to need to be deserving-of-and-receive some very generous scholarships, and - even then - probably attend school somewhere which is a workable commute from home."

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/ ... 824566.php

[Sousaswag]

My two mentors advised that I consider teaching as a career, and they saw what I couldn’t see when I was younger. I love my job now, even if I am a cynic about it sometimes. Teaching isn’t for everyone, and I wouldn’t advise someone I don’t know very well to do it - BUT, everyone I talk to now, I advise to pick literally anything else in addition to playing your instrument. It’s just smart.

[russiantuba]

On my first DMA audition at the University of Utah with Gary Ofenloch, he threw me a question I didn't expect--"what are your performance aspirations?' As a DMA auditionee, my goal was to go into higher education, teaching, and research, but I still wanted to play. I told him, a big orchestral player, that I liked doing solo music, chamber is enjoyable because it shows any weakness in my playing and makes me better, and I do want to be able to do well on orchestral music, and I have done some jazz and non-traditional music, which also tells you a lot about your playing. He responded, "so, you basically want to be like Harvey Phillips". I had never thought of Harvey as this, but it resonated. He, again as an orchestral player, one of my weaker areas, went on to say how a DMA will not get me a job, and winning an audition is even harder. He mentioned that he was a finalist for the job at The Ohio State University (where I ended up going), and all 3 finalists did not have a DMA, but did have ample playing experiences in many areas. I didn't have a good audition at Utah; I felt I had to warm up, and since the building was closed, warming up outside in 20 degree weather made my horn flat. I got in, and stayed in contact with him. I also had a lesson with Tony Kniffen of the Indianapolis Symphony, where I brought in solo repertoire (Penderecki as one of them) as the focus, and he thanked me for not being an excerpt focus musician that sits there on the same 20 excerpts over and over.

I am sure I will be told I am negative and discouraging, but here are some facts. There are roughly 45 "full time" orchestral tuba jobs. Fort Wayne, which pays less than $40,000 a year, had over 100 auditionees show up. Granted, $39,000 a year MIGHT be enough to have a place and eat in Fort Wayne, as the area isn't super expensive to live in, but you won't be as comfortable without other work. Honolulu I am sure is on of those, and the amount they pay, even less, won't make it without another "full-time" job. The guy who had been holding the spot for over a decade (who I know well and went to one of my schools) also is a full-time performer with the Royal Hawaiian Band (which pays more), teaches at University of Hawaii, AND does a bit of freelancing and is very versatile. I am not sure if any of ROPA groups are in the 45 designated as full time that pay less than that in higher cost markets.

I know it is negative and discouraging to tell a student to look at other interests as well. My other interests besides teaching was in musicology, even from when I was in undergraduate studies, and I also enjoyed some of the other academics. I have suggested to students that didn't play other commercial instruments (and still did) to pick up conducting, find work repairing instruments or tuning pianos, and at one of my intuitions, Ohio Northern University, we offer a BA in Sound Recording Technology, with a study abroad option in Salford, UK, and work with the BBC recording studios. As others have mentioned, teaching isn't for everyone, and it isn't easy.

Going into a field where there are less than 100 total full time performing jobs in the country (including military bands which have physical height and weight requirements) and more than 100 people showing up for auditions, and only wanting to do one of those, is a recipe to having a plan B outside of music.

[UncleBeer]

To Harvey's credit, I believe he saw that those times (particularly when tuba players left school and returned to their medium-size hometown cities) were coming to an end - thus (in his messaging - when he would speak to groups of students) would not spend all that much time discussing "mastering excerpts", and "how to audition for orchestras".

John Swallow, who played trombone in the New York Brass Quintet (where Harvey also played), insisted that if you had your fundamentals down, your chops in reasonable shape, and had a pretty good idea of the context of major excerpts, there's absolutely no reason to honk the excerpts over and over. I think he was on to something.

[bloke]

Yeah, it's easy too resent a teaching job (so many a-hole bosses and a-hole students, with the goals of those who control institutional education being anything but education), so it shouldn't be a backup plan; it should be a primary plan. With all these adversities, it really requires tremendous dedication.

[Mary Ann]

I didn't see the light until I was nearly 30, but I acted on it, and spent from 32-39 sleeping on the floor, living out of boxes, and getting my BSEE. That was AFTER I had played violin in a regional orchestra, had a lesson business, played free lance everything you can imagine, and STILL had to share an apartment and drive a battered old car.

I was lucky to have the ability and drive to get that EE degree, and now I have not only comfortable retirement income but a paid-for house and nice vehicles. I never got any advice whatsoever from a teacher as to what path was good or not, though. All assumed my goal was to be a symphony violinist, which at the time it was -- and it took me many years to wise up. Fortunately I had not taken on the responsibilities of a family, which would have very likely prevented the path I am so glad I took.

[bloke]

I have to believe that there are some golfers who play as well or just about as well as some of these top pros that we see on TV, but just aren't interested in the least in that type of lifestyle, and have jobs that pay them really well, so that they're golfing is a hobby.
As the symphony orchestra industry in the United States continues to retreat in the concerts become more and more tedious and silly, and the pay becomes more and more casual for the musicians, I tend to suspect that the quality of playing really won't go down very much, but fewer people will get sucked into quarter million dollar educational pursuits, and that more really top level musicians will received their primary income from other pursuits not even related to music.
I hope I don't have him mixed up with someone else, but I'm thinking that Joe Robinson's (long time principal oboist in the New York Philharmonic) primary educational background was non-music-related, and he only ended up doing the oboe thing in New York because (well) he auditioned for the job and was hired, it was one of the few really good paying steady oboe jobs in the United States (hired in 1977, during the time when these sort of jobs were increasing in pay, rather than diminishing).

[Mary Ann]

To be a long time principal oboist for a living, you have to LIKE doing that. Like doing it a LOT, or have nowhere else to go. I did not like being a symphony violinist; the politics were unbelievable, and it was usually a downright unpleasant experience, what with who was hating whom and the factions. It was JEEZ I have to go do something ELSE. And I did.

[dsfinley]

One of the best musicians I know is a trombonist who happens to also be an electrician. He holds down a few different per service orchestra positions and takes just about every freelance gig he gets his way. He doesn’t have to take any of those gigs to make a good living either.

[BopEuph]

I just got home from a memorial for Joe Kreines. For those of you who don't know, Joe was very active with the CSO in the 60s and 70s, was very close to Fritz Reiner, and produced the low brass excerpts CD from 1971. The discussion of orchestral music and making it in this economy was a subject talked about with a few of the groups I wandered into.

Our local phil tubist is an electrical engineer by day, and excellent orchestral tuba player by night. One of the things Joe told me is that I was sensible for not pursuing an orchestral path--practicing hours on end for weeks leading up to an audition for the possibility of making something like 30k is, for lack of a better thought, a waste of time. It's simply much more beneficial to get into the live music scene, play good gigs, and get called back for more. For orchestral work, I'm just on the sub list of a handful of regional orchestras, and get one or two of those a year--and they don't pay nearly as much as Broadway or especially wedding work.

One non-Harvey related story:

As far as professors and studying formally, I once met Lou Morrow, who used to be the two-day bassist at Disney's Grand Floridian Society Orchestra, which was a six-piece early jazz band. Lou was a local legend, in that he was the house bassist with the Copa Cabana, and was the first pro to buy a Fender Precision bass in NYC when the instrument became available. He was on virtually every commercial jingle we all heard in the 90s, simply because other NYC-area bassists refused to buy a Fender because it's "nothing more than a toy."

Now, when I met Lou, he shook my hand, and asked me point blank: "are you a good bassist?"

I said, "yes, I studied with Dennis Marks at UNF, as well as..."

Lou scowled, and said, "don't give me all that Shirt, I asked you a yes or no answer."

I said, "yes, I'm an able bassist."

Lou said, "well, I'll be the judge of that, because you're playing my next set."

After the set, Lou came up and said, "next time someone asks you that question, you say, 'yes, I'm a good player.' You know what a music professor is? Just a cat who couldn't get a gig."

While that's not always a fair assessment, I've since learned that a lot of "real-world" lessons my professors taught me weren't great preparation for the gigging life, because all many of them could do was play the hell out of their instruments and teach...and the latter wasn't always true.

One Harvey related story:

The best lesson Harvey gave me was riding up the elevator to the banquet for the Potomac Tuba-Euphonium competition. He wondered where my case was, because, and I quote, "you always bring your empty case to a banquet so that you can fill it with the food from the buffet."

For tuba, I make a significant amount of my income in the Oktoberfest season, and get the standard Christmas/Easter gigs. My sousaphone makes more money leasing it out to the theme parks. Obviously, bass makes much more money, and it was sensible for a euphonium player who plays bass to pick up the tuba; but generally, tuba is more of a supplement to my bass playing, where wedding bands make much more.

[UncleBeer]

While that's not always a fair assessment, I've since learned that a lot of "real-world" lessons my professors taught me weren't great preparation for the gigging life, because all many of them could do was play the hell out of their instruments and teach...

Astounding that there are perfesserz who don't even bother to take care of the playing part any more, yet are still kept on staff. One well-played note is worth a million words of explanation.

[Ted Cox]

IF you haven't read Harvey's autobiography, Mr. Tuba, buy it! NOW! And when you get your copy, realize that it was originally twice as thick until the publisher, Indiana University Press, chopped it in half. My association with Harvey began in 1979, as an undergraduate student at I.U. Then, he asked me to be his teaching assistant in 1983. My lessons with Harvey were not limited to his studio. Every minute spent with Harvey was a lesson. Often, time spent with Harvey was listening to how he talked to people on the phone - a masterclass in communication and how to do business. Harvey could drop 1,000 ideas in a breath, leaving your head spinning. Harvey was on a different level musically than most everyone else. Find "Baroque Brass" with the N.Y. Brass Quintet and just listen. Whatever success I've had in my life - in music, outside of music, Harvey influenced it all. Tuba Christmas was a drop in the bucket of what he accomplished.

[2nd tenor]

I’m finding this a very interesting thread, thank you all.

One thing that strikes me is that the teaching of music at University is somewhat flawed but in additional ways that I hadn’t previously realised. The life of a professional musician seems to normally be coupled to uncertain and difficult to find income streams, and there are far too few of those streams to support all of the students that pass through Universities. So the teaching of secondary studies - business and or otherwise - which enable graduates to keep a roof over their head and food on their table is essential rather than discretionary. Additionally Universities focus on raising students up to a high level on a particular instrument, but what would be much better is multi-skilling students such that they, instead of tuba players, were associated instrument players. So as a tuba is a bass voice instrument being able to provide a bass voice with brass (several), percussion, reed, pluck string and bowed string makes some sense - give the customer the bass voice he seeks on whatever instrument pleases him.

Those that can’t do teach is an old and somewhat harsh saying, but there are elements of truth to it. On the other hand I’ve (also) had some excellent engineering teachers who really knew their stuff and had a passion for supporting others by passing on knowledge to the younger generation. Ultimately technical excellence, be it in music making or some other area, has limited value and you just need to be good enough to get paid - getting paid is the most important part of any piece of work.

[bloke]

In my view, far too many who are allowed to sign up for individual instruction (private studio lessons) are not qualified to be eligible for such instruction. Even if they pay 100% of their own tuition, the costs are heavily subsidized by taxpayers, and far too much taxpayer money (monies taken away from individuals and families via coercion) is wasted in far too many folly enterprises. I'm not necessarily against remedial instruction - as far as playing techniques are concerned, but not at the expense of state university or the hapless taxpayers. University degrees are supposed to be "higher" education... In other words, building from what has already been learned. If there's no foundation, a student is not ready for higher education.
Further, if a college student isn't qualified to be able to sign up for private studio music instruction, they shouldn't be allowed to be a music or music education major, because private instruction is part of the curriculum for both of those degrees.
Sorely missing from much private studio music instruction in universities (tuba specific) is the ability to read chord changes and play them in various styles, as well as listening to not particularly difficult songs two or three times through and then being able to play bass lines underneath those songs without having written down chord changes to which they could otherwise refer. (Note that I said that they could listen to up to three choruses of a fairly simple song prior to playing a bass line along with it. This is not an unreasonable expectation for a working tuba player, nor for a person who is later expected to teach others how to play the tuba.) Schools or departments of music limiting the definition of music to "music whereby everything about the playing of it is completely written down on paper" is anything but all encompassing, and doesn't go along with the name of the broader institution, university, which contains the word/words "universe/universal". By the way, playing chord changes to songs is not limited to so-called (with an extremely low percentage of the population listening to this type of music) "jazz", as virtually all western music features chord changes...even some of the current popular styles (styles which never leave the tonic).

[gocsick]

In my view, far too many who are allowed to sign up for individual instruction (private studio lessons) are not qualified to be eligible for such instruction. Even if they pay 100% of their own tuition, the costs are heavily subsidized by taxpayers, and far too much taxpayer money (monies taken away from individuals and families via coercion) is wasted in far too many folly enterprises. I'm not necessarily against remedial instruction - as far as playing techniques are concerned, but not at the expense of state university or the hapless taxpayers. University degrees are supposed to be "higher" education... In other words, building from what has already been learned. If there's no foundation, a student is not ready for higher education.
Further, if a college student isn't qualified to be able to sign up for private studio music instruction, they shouldn't be allowed to be a music or music education major, because private instruction is part of the curriculum for both of those degrees.

I don't disagree with you...Where your argument may overreach is in implying that such subsidy is uniquely wasteful or that lack of technical or immediate readiness should automatically disqualify students. Most other disciplines also remediate underprepared students (e.g., math labs, writing centers), and we accept those costs as part of access and equity in public higher ed. Public universities have missions beyond job training—broad cultural enrichment, community engagement, and teacher preparation.. The remedial vs. advanced line is blurrier than the argument suggests: not every region has equal access to high-level private instruction before college, so the university may be the first place students get it.

It is an interesting and important question... What responsibility does the university have in ensuring students are being trained in something useful?

Historically private universities have never viewed themselves as engaging in "Workforce training"... The scions of wealthy families who attended didn't need the degree for a job... Education was largely a social function and a stamp of superiority over the unwashed masses.. and a way to show magnanimity by allowing very small number of exceptionally bright "poors" into the hallowed halls. Music and the arts in general fit very well here. It is no different than choosing to study art history or a dead language... There is no expectation of obtaining gainful employment with this knowledge.

Public universities, going back to the land grant universities (Merill act 1862) were by design supposed to be different and provide practical education to the “industrial classes” — farmers, mechanics, working families — not just elites. Emphasize applied sciences, agriculture, engineering, and military training alongside classical studies. I think there is a fair argument to be made that Public institutions shouldn't have the broad missions of "public enlightenment" and "cultural enrichment" which they have adopted (forced to adopt???).... and they should go back to the mission of educating people in "practical" studies...

Where is the balance???

I know I sound like a hypocrite because my son is preparing for University auditions.. I also 100% realize that this is coming from a place of privilege in that he is eligible for greatly reduced tuition since I am an employee of the university.. He also has workable plans for the future that does not rely on tooting the tuba professionally (as workable as any 18 year old's plan can be)..

Sorely missing from much private studio music instruction in universities (tuba specific) is the ability to read chord changes and play them in various styles, as well as listening to not particularly difficult songs two or three times through and then being able to play bass lines underneath those songs without having written down chord changes to which they could otherwise refer. (Note that I said that they could listen to up to three choruses of a fairly simple song prior to playing a bass line along with it. This is not an unreasonable expectation for a working tuba player, nor for a person who is later expected to teach others how to play the tuba.) Schools or departments of music limiting the definition of music to "music whereby everything about the playing of it is completely written down on paper" is anything but all encompassing, and doesn't go along with the name of the broader institution, university, which contains the word/words "universe/universal". By the way, playing chord changes to songs is not limited to so-called (with an extremely low percentage of the population listening to this type of music) "jazz", as virtually all western music features chord changes...even some of the current popular styles (styles which never leave the tonic).

100% agree.. Can you imagine a gigging bassist or pianist who can't play by ear????

[UncleBeer]

What responsibility does the university have in ensuring students are being trained in something useful?

I put this pic up in another thread, but will drop it in here as well. A recent pic of a large university tuba studio. A whole lot of people. Some will become band directors, some will wash out of music entirely, and I'd wager maybe 2 or 3 will end up playing for a living (most likely military field band or regional orchestra).

As you wonder: is this responsible recruiting, consdidering the job market?

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