Please help a new old guy with his first 4 valve tuba...

[2bahawk]

I tooted any first tuba in 1957 - fifth grade, in France. A sousaphone on a stand. I was too small to support it my self.

FAST FORWARD to 2025, you count the years, and now I have a new tuba with 4 of the rotary valves. I understand that the 4th key is used in place of fingerings 1-3, and 1-2-3. But it also seems that on this instrument the 4th also plays the C, second space on the staff. What's with this? Is it normal?

Does any body have a chart that includes fingerings for 3 and 4 valve tubas? I will have one of each going forward. Another tips are appreciated...

[arpthark]

4 is an alternate fingering for that C.

In a nutshell, you can use any fingering from the lower octave of a note to produce the higher octave. So you can play that C as 1 (“standard” fingering), 1-3 or 4.

Likewise, you can play the Db above it as 2-3 (like the lower octave) or 2, and the D above that as 1-2 or open.

Players will occasionally use these alternate fingerings for ease of technical passages or for intonation.

[bloke]

I'm going to assume that this is a B-flat NON-compensating instrument, and that it features typical intonation characteristics.
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If you are willing to manipulate your upper #1 slide on the fly...

(which might include taking it to a qualified shop that can perfectly align that slide, as well as venting the #1 valve)

...since your four valve tuba is very likely not compensating, you're not going to get much good out of that 4th valve unless you continue to play C below the staff - along the very low F - with the valve combination 1-3, and do so with the first slide pulled out quite far (specifically for those two pitches).

Warm up your instrument and tune your fourth valve slide (or slides plural) until the valve combination 2-4 is just about in tune for B natural below the staff and very low E natural.

With many instruments, you might need to push the 1st valve slide all the way in for second space C natural (the same as with many 3-valve B flat tubas), and possibly for second line B natural as well. (Yes, this slide manipulation I'm referring to is "on the fly", so that slide needs to work very smoothly and easily.)

With your 4th valve slides pulled out far enough to tune the 2-4 valve combinations flat enough for good pitch, you then probably have enough tubing to play the very low E flat with 1-4, and probably helping it a little bit by pulling the first slide out as well.

If you really want to play low, you might end up with a good low D natural with the valve combination 2-3-4, but - with the setup that I've recommended - you might need to push the fourth slide in for that very low D (or not, depending on your playing and your instrument).

I'm not going to comment on pitches lower than that, because that's just sort of screwing around - even though practicing playing pitches lower than that improves the quality of sound of the low pitches which you are actually requested to play in written music.

I'm only answering questions related to tuning, because that's really the point of acquiring an instrument with more valves (more - and hopefully more desirable - tuning options).

My advice above isn't what most people do, but it's the best advice that I can give you - in my opinion. If you tune the fourth valve to play C & low F, your B natural and your low E natural are still going to be stinky sharp (in other words, several inches shy of enough tubing to play those pitches flat enough)... and that's after spending the money for a four valve instrument...so continue to play C & F with the valve combination 1-3, but pull the first slide out quite far so that those are now in tune.

Also, since this advice won't line up with very many other people's advice, expect subsequent posts to feature "yeah but with my tuba..." contradictions to what I've advised.

If you happen to have purchased a Miraphone model 186 B flat tuba, my experience is that there isn't enough 4th valve slide adjustment built into those to play B natural and low E natural flat enough with the valve combination 2-4. Only very early 1960s versions of that model featured a "loop-over" slide setup that offered enough tubing to do that. My suspicion is that they quit building the 4th slide that way, because Americans (not really understanding the logic of the system) complained that they could not play C and low F up to pitch with the 4th slide built longer like that.

[donn]

Valved instruments have inherent intonation problems with combinations of valves. If 1 and 2 are tuned just right for their respective notes, the 1+2 combination will be sharp for its note. Etc.

So as suggested above, eventually we tune for some compromise between all the fingerings we need - you need 2+4 to get B below the staff, so you'd tune the 4th valve flat enough for that. (Probably be a good idea to try that 2+4 combination on some higher notes, to avoid confusion in case your intonation down there isn't perfect.) Will 4 now be too flat to use in place of C? Maybe you'll end up using 1+3 (also, you'll tune 3 flat, right?) On the other hand, it may be that with a very little practice, you can play pretty much anywhere you want down there, and your 2+4 won't need any great tuning down.

The object here isn't to get everything in perfect tune so you'll be ready to take a seat in your city's philharmonic orchestra, it's to get started with valve combinations that eventually have the potential to play in tune. If you think it sounds weird to be tromboning your first valve slide for tuning on the fly, don't worry, just forget that for now.

[bloke]

Second year trumpet players are taught to use their first valve slide thumb saddles - as well as third slide rings (as well as being taught to listen to the pitch), yet a significant percentage of tuba players still scoff at such suggestions.

Something that I've noticed about quite a few four valve tubas that belong to schools:
When they come in for repairs, the fourth valves are often very badly stuck - cemented in with lime deposits due to lack of use...
... and this is when I get back on my high horse and speak in favor of the taxpayers.

[gocsick]

Since no one has linked to a good fingering chart

https://norlanbewley.com/bewleymusic/tu ... b-tuba-nc/

[Grumpikins]

I agree with bloke on how to use/tune the 4th valve. Unfortunately, I was not taught how to use it. When I got tubas with 4th and later a 5th valve, my teacher (college) attitude was figure it out yourself. So I self taught using 4th valve instead of 1/3 combos.

Lately I have been pushing myself to tune and use it in the way bloke described and it really is easier to play in both the low and pedal registers with the 1st valve slide being used to control intonation. However, its REALLY hard to unlearn using the valves the other way. So best option is to learn it correctly the first time. So go back to blokes post and really study it.

Additionally, I still play an antique 3 valve horn occasionally and the intonation on that thing is pretty darn good. So the regular 1/3 valve combos work well. Why replace them with a 4 that makes things wonky. Proof that the method bloke described is how the 4th was intended to be used.

[bloke]

@Grumpikins

You and I are no different.
I unlearned that habit, and I'm waaaay up in my sixties... and I unlearned it at the same time that I learned how to play B flat tuba (a whole lot better than I could play it the last time I played it, which was when I was 17).
I'm talking about 5-valve B flats... And it's still best to play the 1-3 pitches with 1-3... But that first valve slide needs to be effortless without being leaky, and that first valve needs to be vented.

again...The whole point of 4-valves (vs. 3) is better intonation...

...so why not (??) "the best intonation that 4 valves can possibly offer" ?