Tuba Parts and Unobtainium

[tubatodd]

I'm sure this is more likely an issue with very old discontinued horns or defunct manufacturers. In the auto world, it has gotten to be really bad. I've seen several Youtube channels around vehicles saying that getting vehicle parts for some models is near impossible.

Anyway, I just recently purchased a set of valve guides for my Besson 995. Is there anything wrong with my current valve guides? No. When will I need a set of valve guides? I have no idea and that is why I bought them.

So my logic in buying these is that at some point Buffet Crampon will stop making parts for my horn. Metal parts seem easier to find, craft, machine or finagle. The plastic bits seem more specific and run the risk of being an issue.

I haven't explored 3D printing, but I wonder if the tolerances with average 3D printers are sufficient for crafting these types of parts. Are the plastics used with these printers durable enough? How do you get a real object modeled for a 3D printer?

Does anyone else have thoughts on "Unobtainium?"

[je]

I've never had a valve guide fail, so I haven't joined you (yet?) in this particular overstocking paranoia. But the parts aren't complicated enough to make bespoke manufacturing overly troublesome. My experience over the past year with 3D printing (using a ~$1500 consumer-oriented printer) is that 0.005" repeatability is easy to achieve. On the subtractive manufacturing side, I'm guessing Delrin would work well, and it's pretty easy to machine.

Now you have me thinking about making Delrin guides to replace the perfectly functional, but very loud valve guides in my King 2341. I've been assuming that such aftermarket parts already exist, but I've just been avoiding the problem by playing anything but that tuba.

[Mary Ann]

I'm thinking 3D printer will be the way to go, and it's an interesting conundrum.

[bloke]

I sell instruments whereby the valve guides are on the top and held in by the stems, and most of the instruments that I work on - which are baritone, bass, and contrabass brass - are made that way these days, but I'm not a fan of that style of guide.
I don't think anyone needs to panic about top mounted guides, because there's always the option of drilling into the side of a piston, tapping a thread and screwing in a homemade nylon guide (after fashioning one or a set from some online-bought nylon screws of the same thread)...and homemade nylon guides that screw into the sides of pistons don't require 3D printers in order to fabricate them.
Finally, adult players tend to not "trial and error" pistons into. casings. They take a look at where the slot is located in a casing, line the plastic guide tooth up with the slot, and - therefore - don't abuse valve guides.
As far as determining the hole needs to be drilled into the side of a piston, with the broken valve guide right there to use as reference this doesn't require very much brain power.

[tubatodd]

I sell instruments whereby the valve guides are on the top and held in by the stems, and most of the instruments that I work on - which are baritone, bass, and contrabass brass - are made that way these days, but I'm not a fan of that style of guide.
I don't think anyone needs to panic about top mounted guides, because there's always the option of drilling into the side of a piston, tapping a thread and screwing in a homemade nylon guide (after fashioning one or a set from some online-bought nylon screws of the same thread)...and homemade nylon guides that screw into the sides of pistons don't require 3D printers in order to fabricate them.
Finally, adult players tend to not "trial and error" pistons into. casings. They take a look at where the slot is located in a casing, line the plastic guide tooth up with the slot, and - therefore - don't abuse valve guides.
As far as determining the hole needs to be drilled into the side of a piston, with the broken valve guide right there to use as reference this doesn't require very much brain power.

So in other words, there are options for repair, regardless of whether the factory part is available. The part (pardon the pun) that confused me is that the guide is above the surface of the piston. So, drilling into the side didn't seem feasible to layman like myself. Glad to know there are always options. $17.95 for a set of 4 guides for the future seemed like a fair price. I'm glad I have them for an emergency...should the situation arise.

[bloke]

Having a set of those in your sock drawer is a good idea. I'm just making the point that there are other options.

[arpthark]

I find myself stockpiling weird things. 3-piece adjustable braces, old school Besson trapezoid finger buttons. I currently have four alto horns. They don’t make ‘em anymore, ya know.

[Sousaswag]

Dealt with this a lot lately, particularly with my Holton 345. The only solution is to find old parts horns or projects people are selling, or make new parts.

But I get where you’re coming from. There’s always that thought in the back of my mind “if this were to happen, then I’m SOL”

In my experience, almost everything is fixable. You just gotta know a guy!

[UncleBeer]

Djeezus, folks. Once you can reliably soft- and hard solder, the horizon is endless. This is the fun: visualizing, fabricating, finishing. C'mon now.

[bloke]

Djeezus, folks. Once you can reliably soft- and hard solder, the horizon is endless. This is the fun: visualizing, fabricating, finishing. C'mon now.

making oddball valve guides and spending any considerable amount of time on it (when all I have to do is drill and tap and make one out of a nylon screw)...

Hey man, I have between 0 and maybe 15 years left in my life, I'm not going to be making no valve guides that require more than 5 minutes to make.

[BramJ]

The 'standard' 3D printing material is PLA, it's quite strong but somewhat brittle with little warning before it breaks. But you can also print materials like Nylon or Polycarbonate which are much tougher.

[prodigal]

You made me remember something having to do with 3-D printing, I took a tour of a local business that did precision measuring for military applications. One of their assignments was measuring the lands of M4 and M9 firearms to look for signs of wear after thousands of rounds. As a gun guy, I found this most interesting. Later they took us to their 3-D printing lab, where they had a large contract to measure and 3-D print parts for of all things, the B-52H Stratofortress. The thing has been in use for so long, they apparently couldn't machine replacement parts anymore.

The tolerances must be very good for an airplane, but I guess Boeing made 'em better back in the day when they were supposed to have nukes loaded in them....

I later in the day had a tour of the HP White lab, where they had "the bullet that killed JFK" supposedly, on display, but I'm not going there on my first cup o java for the day.

An interesting day. The youngins' think 3-D printing is the rage, but they have grown up in a plastic world so its normal for them. I give kudos to elephant and bloke and all of you who work in metal, because the cool tools and toys are made of metal!

[Trmn]

This is really a good idea

[bloke]

I like quiet plastic valve guides and I like the fact that they don't wear out valve casing guide tracks, but I don't like the fact that they're held onto pistons by the piston stems. That's really cheesy regardless of who's doing it, and a whole bunch of manufacturers are doing it.

This crappy system defines a whole bunch of breakdowns of stuff that isn't broken (or whereby a $2 part needs to be replaced), and it's mostly kids... And kids needlessly doing without instruments, and repair shops needlessly driving back and forth between their shops and schools.

Due to the tiny diameter that valve stems have to be turned down to in order for this system to work, it also defines inordinate (if not epic) numbers of broken off valve stems with the male threads stuck in the valves.

[prodigal]

I like quiet plastic valve guides and I like the fact that they don't wear out valve casing guide tracks, but I don't like the fact that they're held onto pistons by the piston stems. That's really cheesy regardless of who's doing it, and a whole bunch of manufacturers are doing it.

This crappy system defines a whole bunch of breakdowns of stuff that isn't broken (or whereby a $2 part needs to be replaced), and it's mostly kids... And kids needlessly doing without instruments, and repair shops needlessly driving back and forth between their shops and schools.

Due to the tiny diameter that valve stems have to be turned down to in order for this system to work, it also defines inordinate (if not epic) numbers of broken off valve stems with the male threads stuck in the valves.

Do you refer to the Yamaha euph valve guides? Those have been a pain with destructive teenagers!

[gocsick]

I feel like I am opening a huge can of worms here...I really don't see a case where 3D printing metal parts for instruments makes any sense whatsoever.

The most common technology for metal additive is Laser Powdered Fusion... where a thin layer of powder is spread out over a large area and a laser selectively melts the part you want to build.. then spreads another thin layer and the pat is slowly built up.

https://makeagif.com/gif/how-metal-3d-p ... rks-vC858I

There is a huge amount of wasted unmelted powder which has to be screened and sifted before it can be reused.. so you generally try to cram as much stuff on a build plate as possible. Even then you typically have build rates of about 25cm^3 per hour or about 1 normal ice cube of material per hour. I did a back of the envelope calculation on an EOS M290 (probably the most common metal printer in industry) you could fit about 49 tuba piston valves on one build plate but it would take 60 hours to print at a cost of $800/piston for stainless.. They would still need to be machined and polished before lapping and fitting because the surface finish is only as smooth as the powder particle size you are using.

The business cases where things make sense to print are when it enables geometries that can't be made other ways... such as the GE turbine engine fuel nozzles with complex internal fuel and air channels., or parts that are mission critical and are needed in small volumes. Most of the military parts all into the later.... I worked a project on tie rod arms for tow dollies for A10 Intruders. The original manufactures are all out of business... the original drawings are lost... they were originally cast and forged... and a new set of casting molds and forging dies would be >$100,000 with an 18 month leadtime (oh and they would likely be outsourced to China or India)... The DoD estimated they would need 40 of these for the remaining service life of the plane. So printing suddenly looks like a viable option.

I am on sabbatical from the university this year ... I am working for a small manufacturing company setting up a facility to print parts for the Government and Billionaire rocket men using an alternate technology called laser wire additive.. Basically you. have a MIG welder on a robot arm and instead of an electric arc to melt to wire you use a laser.. You can build up big things like valve bodies or rocket engine components but it is $$$$.

[kingrob76]

I've been trying to get a longer tuning slide for my Eastman 836 for well over 2 1/2 years, even bringing the issue to the attention of Chuck Kerrigan who put me in touch with "the right people".

Suffice to say, 2 1/2 years later I still don't have a longer tuning slide for my 836.

[bloke]

I've been trying to get a longer tuning slide for my Eastman 836 for well over 2 1/2 years, even bringing the issue to the attention of Chuck Kerrigan who put me in touch with "the right people".

Suffice to say, 2 1/2 years later I still don't have a longer tuning slide for my 836.

How about a Conn 2, Conn Chief, or Holton 52 mouthpiece?
- euro shank
- a full 4 inches long
- super-deep cup
- super-large throat

That should drop the pitch a bit.

If still not enough, how about one pretty good size scoop of ice into the bottom bow?

[MiBrassFS]

.

[TxTx]

I've been trying to get a longer tuning slide for my Eastman 836 for well over 2 1/2 years, even bringing the issue to the attention of Chuck Kerrigan who put me in touch with "the right people".

I needed a longer tuning slide for my Willson Eb. I wrote Willson and it was about $450 for them to make one for me. So I took the horn to @UncleBeer who used his draw rings to draw a tube to just the right size, and replaced the shorter of the two male tubes. Definitely blessed to have him only an hour away.