Renee Fleming lashes out at ‘criminal’ US voice programs

[DonO.]

Tofu- your post is too long to comfortably quote, so I will simply post a retort.

The point of view you express seems to be logical on its face. However, the devil, as they say, is in the details.

In my opinion, the world needs both auto mechanics and art historians. I believe many would agree with me on that premise. But you deem the former necessary and the latter “useless”. That the woman you saw interviewed was complaining that she couldn’t find a job is interesting. Far from being a limiting degree, someone with an art history degree isn’t limited to jobs in academia. She could find work in a museum as a curator, conservator, docent, or educator. She could work in an art gallery as a director or buyer. She could work as an art appraiser or private consultant. I’m sure there are other things out there I haven’t thought of. Sounds like she just isn’t trying hard enough or thinking creatively enough.

The whole student loan thing is a completely separate issue. According to you, student loans shouldn’t be payed off by “taxpayer dollars” for students who took them out for “useless degrees”. Do you think that a $300,000 student loan debt SHOULD be payed off by taxpayer’s dollars IF the loan was taken out by a student with a degree that you deem “useful”? And who should be the arbiter of what degrees are “useful” and /or “useless”?

As I understand what I have read about student loans:

1. These loans have been usually offered by private financial institutions, not governments.
2. Many of the loans were predatory in nature, defined by the way in which the interest was compounded.
3. It’s true that the student should know what they’re getting into when they sign. But the documents are very long and written in legalese that only a lawyer could properly understand. An 18 year old non-lawyer could not be expected to comprehend a document like that.
4. Often, when the loan officer would explain the terms of the contract to the student, they omitted important details or simply lied.
5. In many cases, the principal of the loan plus at least some interest has been payed back, yet the balance owed on the loan is still upside down compared to principal because of the way the interest is compounded.
6. The most important point is this. If a law was passed forgiving these types of loans, taxpayers would not lose one red cent. No tax money was used to fund them in the first place. Even the financial institutions would lose nothing if the principal and at least some reasonable amount of interest has been repaid. They would have a net gain. The only loss would be future predatory interest. Why should they not get interest monies that any reasonable person would consider beyond the pale? The terms “usury” and “loan sharks” come to mind.

[bloke]

Most everything I post is too long. I don't completely agree with either of your posts, but I'm not going to comment on anything in either one.
State, county, and local governments can experiment with whatever services they care to provide and however much they care to tax their residents (I'm sure that some of you fork over the price of a brand new 186 every year as "property taxes" on your not particularly large nor fancy houses), because - when their experiments fail - they will be forced to stop, and - if they don't stop them - people can vote with their feet (as we see occurring) but federal experiments trap everyone - as there's nowhere to go, and - unfortunately - the omnipotent ruling-class-owned private bank called "the Fed" can print as much currency (create as many dollars which represent no goods nor any services) as it cares to print, and the omnipotent federal government can go into debt as deeply as it cares to go into debt - even beyond absurd to radioactively absurd levels. ("You are here. ")
The moment that someone intentionally misinterpreted the phrase in the Constitution "general welfare" as being synonymous with "specific welfare" was the moment that this Republic headed towards its collapse. The answer to Benjamin Franklin's "if" is (quite obviously) "no", as the masses' consistent characteristics are fear, gullibility, and ignorance.

[bisontuba]

Bloke wrote:

"Most everything I post is too long."

Agree 1000%....

[sansmd]

hello
ok as long as they pay for it. But if you are going to do that - why not go to a state college vs paying mega bucks to Yale etc. Pretty sure art history doesn’t change whether you learn it at middle of nowhere state college vs Princeton. The reality is these people have to a large degree lived lives of extended adolescence - partying, booze, drugs - sleeping in etc. and expect someone else to pay for all of it. An awful lot of these degrees don’t require a whole lot of effort or smarts to achieve. Asking society to pay for something that really has no positive productive impact for society is absurd. Why should some guy of the same ago who instead went and paid to get trained to be an auto mechanic right out of HS at 18, got a job instantly in his field of auto mechanics, bought a house,

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[sansmd]

Addendum: seriously, I totally agree with learning to hear chord changes. I’ll never forget when my teacher got me a Dixieland gig. I asked him if there would be sheet music! He said “of course!” I got to the gig and I asked the group leader about music and he said “Music? Man, I just call the tune and we go!”. No rehearsal, it was just the gig, in front of people, and not only did I not know the tunes, he wouldn’t call the key either and I had to figure out what key we were in! Fortunately, he used a limited number of keys, and the chord changes were not particularly complicated, so I could make up the bass lines pretty well. He was impressed enough with me that I stayed with the group for a season.

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[bloke]

Bloke wrote:

"Most everything I post is too long."

Agree 1000%....

yet you read every bit of it, get an emotional rush out of disagreeing with some of it, and comment on it sometimes.

[bisontuba]

Bloke wrote:

"Most everything I post is too long."

Agree 1000%....

yet you read every bit of it, get an emotional rush out of disagreeing with some of it, and comment on it sometimes.

I need to keep everyone amused...

[bloke]

Bloke wrote:

"Most everything I post is too long."

Agree 1000%....

yet you read every bit of it, get an emotional rush out of disagreeing with some of it, and comment on it sometimes.

I need to keep everyone amused...

Keep trying...

[Schlitzz]

[

Keep trying...

He’s just doing it wrong. He probably hears that a lot.

[bloke]

rhetoric:

It's challenging to be both informational and troll people in the very same posts/responses, but (yes? no?) I think I'm pretty good at it.

[russiantuba]

Back to the topic:

I am actually a huge proponent in telling many high school students to not major in performance. Albeit, I don't have 70 students like my colleagues in the DFW area, but over the years, I have had several high school students major in music education, get substantial scholarships at good schools, etc. I told one that, because of where he is going and the ease of doing so, that he should consider adding a dual performance major on if he wishes, but to focus on music education.

I have had 1 student in the past 10 years, a trombonist, who wanted to go into performance, where I believed he would be successful in the long run. I have a high school senior right now I feel the same about. I do tell them to look at other interests, show them how much the orchestras up for audition pay, share the struggles, to make sure they want this.

Too many students, and teachers, seem to think if a student has talent, that they will be successful performance majors, and that, in my experience on the other side, is rarely the case. To quote Bruce Henniss, horn professor at The Ohio State University, "Talent expires at age 16" where he went on to explain about hard work and effort is what is needed to our graduate brass pedagogy class. When I look at someone wanting to do performance, the self drive, the efforts given, the passion about the field, the willingness to seek out more, all hold more weight than their talent level. I also look for professionalism, above average for the age communicative skills, the want to do extra, et cetera. That trombone student, just finished his MM and was the TA at the flagship school in the state he did the degree, and glad to see he is still at it, doing well, and fighting the fight.

One of my recent college graduates was originally looking at graduate programs. He plays bass in a praise worship band, and though the graduate schools he was looking at seemed very promising to get TA offers, he decided not to pursue graduate work at this time, did as I suggested and focused on marketing his bass skills a few courses to look at outside of music employment that would help support him while he marketed his bass playing. He will be successful in the music field, assuming he continues to pursue it (he is one of those ones who could walk a bass line on tuba, improv, good attitude, etc). Again, the personality traits and the drive, the self motivation and awareness are more important than the snapshot of where they are on audition day.

[UncleBeer]

Pretty sure art history doesn’t change

Tell that to textbook vendors (and perfesserz), who insist you own edition 47 of the course book (that's $400 please), and not edition 46 (which was only $200).

[tubanh84]

hello
ok as long as they pay for it. But if you are going to do that - why not go to a state college vs paying mega bucks to Yale etc. Pretty sure art history doesn’t change whether you learn it at middle of nowhere state college vs Princeton. The reality is these people have to a large degree lived lives of extended adolescence - partying, booze, drugs - sleeping in etc. and expect someone else to pay for all of it. An awful lot of these degrees don’t require a whole lot of effort or smarts to achieve. Asking society to pay for something that really has no positive productive impact for society is absurd. Why should some guy of the same ago who instead went and paid to get trained to be an auto mechanic right out of HS at 18, got a job instantly in his field of auto mechanics, bought a house,

Lots going on here.

State college vs. Yale

You know why. It's Curtis and Julliard vs Everyone else. Because Yale on your resume gets you interviews and opportunities that most state schools don't. That's not the students' fault. That's the fault of the people doing the hiring. The explanation I have always heard is that sure, the information they learn is the same, but this person got into Yale, so they must have been better at something at some point. And if the hiring decision doesn't work out, I'd rather be able to tell MY boss "Well they went to Yale! I couldn't have known!" And even before a hiring decision is made, Yale students get networking opportunities and exposure that exist only for students at Yale. The question is not whether there is a two-tiered hiring system, it's how far down it goes. My wife and I are both lawyers. We have kids asking us all the time whether to go to law school. Our answer is always some version of:

1. Don't
2. If you insist, make sure you get a scholarship and go for free
3. Or go to Harvard, Yale, or Stanford for full price if you can get in

But, we tell kids, beyond those three schools, full price is not worth it over going to a state school. But don't for a second think there isn't a tiered hiring scheme, and don't blame kids for trying to get into Tier 1. They didn't create the system. They're trying to succeed in it.

And in the undergrad scheme, it isn't the job-hunters' fault that entry level jobs that require almost no expertise will pay $12.50 an hour and require a bachelor's degree. It frequently doesn't even matter what the degree is in. They just want you to have gone to college. It's a useless requirement. Makes no logical sense. But the students trying to get that degree didn't create that requirement. They're just trying to meet it.

The price of that degree is usually a loan. It is literally the only way some kids can go to college. And those impenetrable documents are contracts of adhesion - Do you want to be able to check the Bachelor's Degree box on that Zip Recruiter posting? Sign here.

Partying/booze/drugs

I went to school in a party-heavy atmosphere. Kids blew off steam for sure, but when it wasn't Friday or Saturday night, they were all working their asses off. And the partying wasn't as bad as you're implying. I have 40-50-year-old friends now who are still in the extended adolescence (but again., work their asses off during the week). I have 40-50-year old friends who feel like life passed them by and they should have partied more. Life should be enjoyed. This is a red-herring.

Societal usefulness

Who decides what is useful? I personally think understanding and interpreting culture and humanity is immensely useful. Knowing the history and implications of art (any kind - visual, music, literature) is much more important than learning to program so that one can create artificial intelligence. We aren't robots, and society doesn't exist to create shareholder value. That's a lie told to you by the same people who reflexively hire from Yale. They're largely uninteresting, selfish, limited people. I'm around a lot of lawyers, many of whom did very well in college, the LSAT, and law school. I rarely talk to anyone I consider to be "brilliant" in the law. The people I do find to be brilliant? The historians and cultural scientists who can take the most miniscule or seemingly unimportant piece of data and extrapolate huge amounts of information from it.

And when it comes down to it - What does it matter what a triceratops ate? Or how many planets are orbiting a star 500 light years away? Or that we found the perfect taper for a .750" leadpipe for a CC tuba? We can't simply define things as "useful" only when other people are willing to spend money to buy them.

The insistence that any degree be "useful" or some theory of economically efficient is a farce. Our Corporate Overlords are in the process of trying to replace as many humans as possible with AI and robots, so they can stop worrying about working conditions and paying humans. Why blame the students for not wanting to play pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey with whatever might still be a job in 10 years? And why blame them that none of the available jobs allow them to afford to live with some dignity and also pay off predatory loans based in contracts of adhesion?

Many CEOs and politicians are now openly saying that they see human reproduction simply as workforce replenishment. Your local art history major sees you as a human being with thoughts, emotions, and value. I'll let you wonder who I'd rather have a coffee with and who I think contributes more to a society I want to live in.

[bloke]

Who decides what is useful

I find that a large percentage of people who vote one way don't understand the answer to this question and - sadly - not everyone who votes another way understand it either.

The answer is: the marketplace.

Particular subjects that are taught in so-called higher education which only lead (profession-wise) to being able to teach that subject to others in higher education (with the only reason that students choose to select those classes being because they are compelled to select them)... That's actually not the market, that's a false market shoehorned into the economy by the ruling class.

Every adolescent's most important obligation to themselves and to society is to obtain a skill set whereby society won't have to provide their keep. The previous paragraph refers to people who could not provide their own keep were it not for how the ruling class manipulates society.

Every person who is following their own path towards the age of majority should be developing and perfecting at least one skill set which is actually in demand in the free market. Once they've done this and have become part of the free enterprise system and are providing for their own needs, at that point if they want to delve into philosophy, sociology, deeper into history than that to which they were exposed in secondary school, prose writing, journalism, music, art, drama, or any of those sorts of things (since - at that point - they are now self supporting), they can supply their own funds (or 100% private loans) to pursue those interests on their own.

Something else about higher education and even a lot of secondary education:
Bulldozing educational facility cinder block buildings (which probably would have lasted forever with some occasional renovation and upgrades) and replacing them with structures that either resemble palaces, high-end shopping centers, or both offers naive young people a very skewed and elitist view of who they are and who they will become... which very likely is the goal. Of course, spending all this money on these sorts of things (in addition to supplying them with the tip tip tip tip top level of equipment - some of which is done without in the private sector, due to its tremendous expense) is really abusive to taxpayers (in addition to being disrespectful to faculty, whose salaries continue to drop - even if numerically increased, in comparison to the value of the dollar).