Renee Fleming lashes out at ‘criminal’ US voice programs

[bowerybum]

https://slippedisc.com/2025/08/just-in- ... -programs/

Substitute tuba for voice..............................................

[bloke]

yep...and I hear people - often with socio-political views greatly differing from my own - predictably stating "Everyone should be able to be whatever they choose to be, and be given every opportunity...etc., etc., etc..."

...but
- on their own - or their own families' - or on some private benefactors' - nickel
- or financed by PRIVATE lending institutions at market rates (ex: car loan rates, etc., and without any government underwriting)
- and those who study no-demand majors (and/or very-little-talent-ability) at state-financed schools are taking money away from taxpayers who are struggling to pay $6/lb. for 70:30 chub ground beef, and to keep their lights and heaters on in their own homes.

State governments - if they are to underwrite and subsidize any "higher" education at all, should only be subsidizing education towards (and nope: not "knowledge for knowledge's sake") qualifying people to fill jobs for which there exists demand and shortages...and (yup) that list should be regularly reevaluated and altered.

When I went to "college", most of the buildings were cinder block (as opposed to TODAY, whereby all the buildings look like palaces or highfalutin shopping malls - yet full of people dressed as if they are posing with signs at freeway exit ramps). I did receive a full scholarship and some money to cover incidentals, but that was because I was marching at the foobaw games and playing in the arena at bassehbaw games, as well as acting as orchestra librarian and stage manager.
The semester tuition was $150 ($150 fall + $150 spring) for as many hours as would be approved by an advisor.
ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION (even for this recent 2021 - 2024 hyperinflation), that's only about $1000/semester (in-state).
ON MY OWN NICKEL (not covered by scholarship money), every summer I attended an intense (two weeks) "pre-summer" semester, along with two (moderately intense) "summer" semesters. I typically checked off THREE of the nonsense ("liberal arts" required) courses during those three intense summer semesters, each summer, and graduated (summa cum laude, fwiw) in three years...which isn't much of any sort of "brag" because (after all) it was just a music ed. degree (as - rightfully so - those in the pure sciences scoff at how easy education degrees - incl. PhD are to obtain). ...but AS EASY AS a "band director degree" is to obtain, it's "dumbed down" even more than it SHOULD be via the "major instrument" concept (studying ONE school band instrument INTENSELY - as if obtaining a performance degree), while (via "brass class", "woodwind class", "percussion class" and "keyboard class") paying lip service to all the rest.

oh yes...and then there's "grade inflation", whereby students today (even "ivy league") who really believe they are "hitting the books hard to achieve their B-averages"...are - well... - not.
As easy as is it to obtain an "education" (or music performance) degree, here's yet another factor:
EVEN by the era of my own matriculation, A's and B's were passed out FAR more often than when my brother matriculated, but now, easier YET:
(This chart demonstrates why I tell people that I attended MEMPHIS STATE UNIVERSITY, rather than THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS.)
ALSO...Notice that this (and other online charts found) end in the early 2000's - as this topic is now verboten (as high grades are now EVEN EASIER to achieve, and certainly easier to achieve when the major field of study is a "less intense" field.


last point:
For ME to be able to justify being outraged at MY tax money being confiscated to build stadiums and arenas for super-wealthy PRIVATE entertainment corporations (NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL teams), then those who aren't the least bit interested in aria-singin' and tuba-sonata-playin' (far-far LESS popular forms of entertainment) should be justifiably allowed to be equally outraged at having to finance large percentages of such individual endeavors (at their taxpayer expense).

bloke "typical triggering-to-some-or-many (who've been institutionally programmed to embrace nonsense) bloke rant"

[C J]

This is what I love about tubaforum: because Bloke posts regularly, we and Europe get a glimpse into the life of a US resident, unfiltered by the press.
Is minced meat really that expensive? In the Netherlands, we pay about $4.00 for 1 lb, and that includes 9% VAT.

Somebody is being ripped of I think.

[bloke]

SIDEBAR (though certainly some of my stuff in my previous response wandered off-topic as well)

This is what I love about tubaforum: because Bloke posts regularly, we and Europe get a glimpse into the life of a US resident, unfiltered by the press.
Is minced meat really that expensive? In the Netherlands, we pay about $4.00 for 1 lb, and that includes 9% VAT.

Somebody is being ripped of I think.

Yesterday, it was $5.94 (but you had to buy this much to get it for only $5.94...I was in there yesterday).
https://www.walmart.com/ip/73-Lean-27-F ... l/44001602
This is a sudden drop (again: 10 lbs. in a chub, where you can't see what you're buying) to $4.00...but we should never be paying as much for stuff as Europeans... Also, (though no knowledge) I suspect that - for the same fat content - this Walmart chub is lower quality that Dutch/Netherlands ground beef.

Reportedly there is a US beef shortage, but - all throughout the 2020 - 2024 economic shutdown - several processing major meat processing plants were shut down, several others "mysteriously" burned down, and now there are epic "wildfires" (grazing land, etc.) everywhere.
bloke is a conspiracy ̶t̶h̶e̶o̶r̶i̶s̶t̶ noticer.

Mrs. bloke and I aren't being ripped off, as we are fishing, pulling out frozen venison, and buying (77-cents-a-pound) ten pound bags of chicken thigh quarters. (I suppose once the water is drained from the bags of chicken and the bones are removed, that chicken MEAT is around $1/lb.)

[prodigal]

SIDEBAR (though certainly some of my stuff in my previous response wandered off-topic as well)

This is what I love about tubaforum: because Bloke posts regularly, we and Europe get a glimpse into the life of a US resident, unfiltered by the press.
Is minced meat really that expensive? In the Netherlands, we pay about $4.00 for 1 lb, and that includes 9% VAT.

Somebody is being ripped of I think.

Yesterday, it was $5.94 (but you had to buy this much to get it for only $5.94...I was in there yesterday).
https://www.walmart.com/ip/73-Lean-27-F ... l/44001602
This is a sudden drop (again: 10 lbs. in a chub, where you can't see what you're buying) to $4.00...but we should never be paying as much for stuff as Europeans... Also, (though no knowledge) I suspect that - for the same fat content - this Walmart chub is lower quality that Dutch/Netherlands ground beef.

Reportedly there is a US beef shortage, but - all throughout the 2020 - 2024 economic shutdown - several processing major meat processing plants were shut down, several others "mysteriously" burned down, and now there are epic "wildfires" (grazing land, etc.) everywhere.
bloke is a conspiracy ̶t̶h̶e̶o̶r̶i̶s̶t̶ noticer.

Mrs. bloke and I aren't being ripped off, as we are fishing, pulling out frozen venison, and buying (77-cents-a-pound) ten pound bags of chicken thigh quarters. (I suppose once the water is drained from the bags of chicken and the bones are removed, that chicken MEAT is around $1/lb.)

The Texas drought during COVID didn't help the beef prices with the rapid selloff and slow replenishment of aged steers. Here at the Mason-Dixon line, pre-covid Holstein bull calves were about $50 each for day old calves. Now the demand is making them into the hundreds. We haven't raised steers since, but we still have beef from the last two, and plenty of venison, despite the absolute worst deer season I've ever had last year.

We're working on sheep here at the hacienda now, because our goats are expensive pets to my children.

[bloke]

We have a few sheep left, but those are for shearing and yarn and they all have names.

We have two pastures that we fenced in ourselves with a barn we built and two catch pens that we built. I'm thinking about goats and not naming them.

This is more back on to the original topic:

https://www.facebook.com/officialbensha ... 7S9Ucbxw6v

[prodigal]

This is what I love about tubaforum: because Bloke posts regularly, we and Europe get a glimpse into the life of a US resident, unfiltered by the press.
Is minced meat really that expensive? In the Netherlands, we pay about $4.00 for 1 lb, and that includes 9% VAT.

Somebody is being ripped of I think.

Agriculture in the US is an insane industry that is self defeating in its size and scope. We need more small farmers to intentionally use smaller parcels of land more effectively, but people want their food as cheaply as possible, so big as always wins.

I personally don't like store bought meat, so I raise it myself, and having great, affordable butchers nearby helps with the processing.

I'll pass up any cut of meat for venison, but you have to diy that here, which is most of the fun.

Renee Fleming is a small town rust-belt.kid from my neck of the woods. Her story is truthful. I'm glad I'm a music teacher, because it is a somewhat stable means of employment, although how much longer we'll have music in schools is a question I ask myself daily. I'm trying to make my students into skilled amateurs to keep community music alive and then to have their kids involved in music.

[MiBrassFS]

.

[Three Valves]

So that’s where all the singing waiters come from!

[JC2]

Unfortunately universities are run for profit, there’s an incentive to have as many students as possible regardless of job opportunity in the workforce.

There’s probably too many people going into higher education generally. Everyone is trying to live the dream, whatever they may be.

Society doesn’t seem to respect trade roles as much as your fancy pants professors, lawyers, investors etc. All of these ‘blue collar’ jobs are vital to make society function. Even the dude picking up the trash each week is performing an essential function for society. All jobs should be respected at all levels and you should live on a fair wage for your work.

[bloke]

Unfortunately universities are run for profit, there’s an incentive to have as many students as possible regardless of job opportunity in the workforce.

There’s probably too many people going into higher education generally. Everyone is trying to live the dream, whatever they may be.

Society doesn’t seem to respect trade roles as much as your fancy pants professors, lawyers, investors etc. All of these ‘blue collar’ jobs are vital to make society function. Even the dude picking up the trash each week is performing an essential function for society. All jobs should be respected at all levels and you should live on a fair wage for your work.

If the Fed would quit printing money that doesn't represent any goods nor services, I think all of us would be paid what we're worth. I'm pretty sure that collecting trash already pays more - and rightfully so - than adjunct tuba instruction.

[Trmn]

This is what I love

[prodigal]

…and they all have names.

Yep, those are called “pets.”

$

“You’re screwed…”

We just had a buckling born yesterday afternoon, his dam rejected him, so another bottle baby aka truck goat.

Seriously, the bottle babies ride in the truck with us to the feed store. They're better in the truck than my German Shepherd.

[prodigal]

Unfortunately universities are run for profit, there’s an incentive to have as many students as possible regardless of job opportunity in the workforce.

There’s probably too many people going into higher education generally. Everyone is trying to live the dream, whatever they may be.

Society doesn’t seem to respect trade roles as much as your fancy pants professors, lawyers, investors etc. All of these ‘blue collar’ jobs are vital to make society function. Even the dude picking up the trash each week is performing an essential function for society. All jobs should be respected at all levels and you should live on a fair wage for your work.

If the Fed would quit printing money that doesn't represent any goods nor services, I think all of us would be paid what we're worth. I'm pretty sure that collecting trash already pays more - and rightfully so - than adjunct tuba instruction.

Around here it pays better than being a public school teacher with a master's and extra.

[DonO.]

I have some MAJOR disagreements with Ms. Fleming’s point of view. And with some of bloke’s as well.

Ms. Fleming comes off as very elitist and “diva-ish”. As well she might, since she does occupy the very tip top of her profession. I don’t know how she got started with singing, but I imagine at some point in her childhood, like most of us, she just opened her mouth and did it. What if someone at that point told her she had “no business” doing it? It’s true that some people are born with superior “pipes”, but most people can become very good singers with the proper training. The majority of us don’t get that, though. There is a common misconception among the general population (and even among instrumental musicians who should know better) that good singers are just born that way and are “talented”. That ignores the fact that truly great singers have to work VERY hard, practice endlessly, take lessons, etc.- just like instrumental musicians. Ms. Fleming should know that. She’s lived it. She must have gone through all of that to be where she is today.

A relative of mine, whom I know very well, is a voice professor at a university with a well known and respected music department. He does several things there, but his real forte is vocal coaching. He is intimately familiar with teaching techniques that bring out the best in his vocal students. And he goes beyond the world of classical and opera (which Ms. Fleming says is “what she knows”). For example, he gets crossover students from the theatre program. With theatre people, one of the things that gets them jobs is to be a “triple threat”- that is, they can act, sing, and dance. So they come to him to sharpen those skills. His students have a track record of success. One landed leading roles in two Broadway shows. Another was a finalist on “The Voice” and came damn close to winning. In my opinion, he should have won! But I digress.

As far as substituting “tuba” for “singer”, I can speak from personal experience. When I was in high school, I aspired to be a tuba major in college. That’s all I ever thought about. I auditioned at a state school with a very well known tuba teacher. You would certainly recognize his name if I cared to share it. I was rejected. Although everyone had told me I was the “best” tuba player ever in my school district, I had little experience outside of that environment. I had never had private lessons. I had no idea how to use a fourth valve. I was asked to transpose trombone music an octave down and had no idea how to do that either. So, maybe some people at that point would have told me I had “no business” majoring in tuba. My own band director advised me to “Give up!” (his exact words). But I was determined! In my mind, that famous teacher wanted students who were ALREADY good players. I wanted a teacher who would actually earn his salary and TEACH me how to be a good player. I finally was accepted at a small college and I like to think I ended up a pretty good player. Not the top of the heap, not the elite, but pretty good. I eventually realized that not everybody has to be the “top of the heap”, that “pretty good” can be satisfying too. I enjoyed a successful career as a music educator. I was able to pickup occasional playing gigs (Dixieland, German) and also community band and even a community orchestra. Look back, it was a very good life. Should I have listened to the people who tried to tell me to give up? I don’t think so.

One other point to share- when I first entered college, I was EXTREMELY impressed with the abilities displayed by my classmates. They ALL were very good pianists, vocalists, and instrumentalists. EVERYONE in my class, I discovered, was first chair, section leader, all county, all region, all state, yadda yadda. And yet, probably 3/4 of them didn’t make to to graduation. Many changed majors to something other than music. Some left school. The irony is, in most cases is was NOT their performance ability that made them stumble. It was the book work. Music theory, music history, form and analysis, etc. THOSE were their Waterloo, not performing ability. It seems our school systems do a pretty good job teaching performance, but little if anything to prepare aspiring music majors for the academic rigors that await them.

[UncleBeer]

Take this worth a grain of salt from someone who has a (somewhat useless) doctorate in tuba performance. I'll just contribute my standard rant: to let tubaists graduate only being proficient in orchestral excerpts and concerti is plain ol' criminal. You're merely perpetuating the cycle of future teachers who only create more teachers, (ad nauseum). Make sure students learn to double on more marketable instruments, and are capable of navigating chord changes.

[russiantuba]

Take this worth a grain of salt from someone who has a (somewhat useless) doctorate in tuba performance. I'll just contribute my standard rant: to let tubaists graduate only being proficient in orchestral excerpts and concerti is plain ol' criminal. You're merely perpetuating the cycle of future teachers who only create more teachers, (ad nauseum). Make sure students learn to double on more marketable instruments, and are capable of navigating chord changes.

This—as a sub for the group, I am frequently playing popular music in a tuba quartet, I’ve subbed for NOLA style brass bands, do quintet, orchestral, teach, etc. But “[my] model of tuba hasn’t won an orchestral job, so it’s not worth purchasing”.

Harvey Phillips had it right, be proficient in music and be a multi-faceted musician.

I must ask some of these big school program professors, that have doctoral tuba euphonium quartets, why are you doing your students such a disservice? Is there enough orchestral positions and college gigs to employ all your students, or sufficient freelance opportunities and connections? I have been critiqued for saying this, but I’m thankful my teachers made it harder to get into their programs and had smaller, “less competitive” performance studios. Colleagues in these larger programs often have mentioned my programs at the time should have offered more competition for me to grow. The older I get, the more thankful I am for the opportunities presented at the time

[DonO.]

Take this worth a grain of salt from someone who has a (somewhat useless) doctorate in tuba performance. I'll just contribute my standard rant: to let tubaists graduate only being proficient in orchestral excerpts and concerti is plain ol' criminal. You're merely perpetuating the cycle of future teachers who only create more teachers, (ad nauseum). Make sure students learn to double on more marketable instruments, and are capable of navigating chord changes.

Yes! Teach them to double on a marketable instrument, like euphonium! The instrument that makes people say “you WHAT?”

Sorry. Couldn’t resist. I’ll let myself out.

Addendum: seriously, I totally agree with learning to hear chord changes. I’ll never forget when my teacher got me a Dixieland gig. I asked him if there would be sheet music! He said “of course!” I got to the gig and I asked the group leader about music and he said “Music? Man, I just call the tune and we go!”. No rehearsal, it was just the gig, in front of people, and not only did I not know the tunes, he wouldn’t call the key either and I had to figure out what key we were in! Fortunately, he used a limited number of keys, and the chord changes were not particularly complicated, so I could make up the bass lines pretty well. He was impressed enough with me that I stayed with the group for a season. So yes, this is a good skill to have. Dixieland is very popular genre in certain circumstances (political rallies, riverboat tours, etc.) and an often overlooked opportunity for jobs playing our favorite instrument! The money was actually pretty decent!

[Three Valves]

Susan Alexander Kane strenuously objects to this unfitting portrayal of usurious vocal professors!

[tofu]

I have some MAJOR disagreements with Ms. Fleming’s point of view. And with some of bloke’s as well.

Ms. Fleming comes off as very elitist and “diva-ish”. As well she might, since she does occupy the very tip top of her profession. I don’t know how she got started with singing, but I imagine at some point in her childhood, like most of us, she just opened her mouth and did it. What if someone at that point told her she had “no business” doing it? It’s true that some people are born with superior “pipes”, but most people can become very good singers with the proper training. The majority of us don’t get that, though. There is a common misconception among the general population (and even among instrumental musicians who should know better) that good singers are just born that way and are “talented”. That ignores the fact that truly great singers have to work VERY hard, practice endlessly, take lessons, etc.- just like instrumental musicians. Ms. Fleming should know that. She’s lived it. She must have gone through all of that to be where she is today.

A relative of mine, whom I know very well, is a voice professor at a university with a well known and respected music department. He does several things there, but his real forte is vocal coaching. He is intimately familiar with teaching techniques that bring out the best in his vocal students. And he goes beyond the world of classical and opera (which Ms. Fleming says is “what she knows”). For example, he gets crossover students from the theatre program. With theatre people, one of the things that gets them jobs is to be a “triple threat”- that is, they can act, sing, and dance. So they come to him to sharpen those skills. His students have a track record of success. One landed leading roles in two Broadway shows. Another was a finalist on “The Voice” and came damn close to winning. In my opinion, he should have won! But I digress.

As far as substituting “tuba” for “singer”, I can speak from personal experience. When I was in high school, I aspired to be a tuba major in college. That’s all I ever thought about. I auditioned at a state school with a very well known tuba teacher. You would certainly recognize his name if I cared to share it. I was rejected. Although everyone had told me I was the “best” tuba player ever in my school district, I had little experience outside of that environment. I had never had private lessons. I had no idea how to use a fourth valve. I was asked to transpose trombone music an octave down and had no idea how to do that either. So, maybe some people at that point would have told me I had “no business” majoring in tuba. My own band director advised me to “Give up!” (his exact words). But I was determined! In my mind, that famous teacher wanted students who were ALREADY good players. I wanted a teacher who would actually earn his salary and TEACH me how to be a good player. I finally was accepted at a small college and I like to think I ended up a pretty good player. Not the top of the heap, not the elite, but pretty good. I eventually realized that not everybody has to be the “top of the heap”, that “pretty good” can be satisfying too. I enjoyed a successful career as a music educator. I was able to pickup occasional playing gigs (Dixieland, German) and also community band and even a community orchestra. Look back, it was a very good life. Should I have listened to the people who tried to tell me to give up? I don’t think so.

One other point to share- when I first entered college, I was EXTREMELY impressed with the abilities displayed by my classmates. They ALL were very good pianists, vocalists, and instrumentalists. EVERYONE in my class, I discovered, was first chair, section leader, all county, all region, all state, yadda yadda. And yet, probably 3/4 of them didn’t make to to graduation. Many changed majors to something other than music. Some left school. The irony is, in most cases is was NOT their performance ability that made them stumble. It was the book work. Music theory, music history, form and analysis, etc. THOSE were their Waterloo, not performing ability. It seems our school systems do a pretty good job teaching performance, but little if anything to prepare aspiring music majors for the academic rigors that await them.

Nah she’s not elitist - she's a realist. In her profession no amount of work is going to produce "the voice". If you don’t have that to begin with you are wasting your time and money if you think you will get one of the few spots in her profession. It’s like whenever I hear some bozo pontificating you can be whatever you want to be. A 4 foot midget is never going to be the starting center for an NBA team. There are many basic attributes one must have to begin with in order to then add the time and effort to get to a place to be a viable candidate for a position. True - talent alone won’t get you there - but it is a prerequisite in order to build on. For example If you can’t run a minimum 4.5 40 you’re not even in the “running” to be an NFL running back.

I think you miss Joe’s main thrust. If someone wants to pursue something - that’s fine - just don’t expect taxpayers to pony up for your pursuit of what is going to be an avocation. Whenever the college debt debate comes up I see these interviews with people who have spent years at an elite expensive IVY league school getting the absolutely useless ART History degree. Just last week on the local news they had an interview with a woman who racked up $290,000 grand in debt at Yale getting an Art History undergrad and masters. She was unemployed and screeching how unfair it was to expect her to pay for it and the government (meaning taxpayers should).

Hell no. If she's so smart she knew exactly what she was doing when she signed those loan agreements. Schools should slap warnings like on cigarette packages all over every document or marketing piece they give to students for these degrees which are more avocations vs vocations.

"This degree may be hazardous to your financial health and even your physical health. This degree has few opportunities and if you are lucky to get a job in your degree profession you will make about as much as flipping hamburgers at Mickey D’s - except you’ll have thousands and thousands of grinding student debt and will have lost 4 -6 years worth of pay while in school.”

If people want to pursue degrees that have no real chance of employment or employment that pays well - that’s ok as long as they pay for it. But if you are going to do that - why not go to a state college vs paying mega bucks to Yale etc. Pretty sure art history doesn’t change whether you learn it at middle of nowhere state college vs Princeton. The reality is these people have to a large degree lived lives of extended adolescence - partying, booze, drugs - sleeping in etc. and expect someone else to pay for all of it. An awful lot of these degrees don’t require a whole lot of effort or smarts to achieve. Asking society to pay for something that really has no positive productive impact for society is absurd. Why should some guy of the same ago who instead went and paid to get trained to be an auto mechanic right out of HS at 18, got a job instantly in his field of auto mechanics, bought a house, established a family, and now pays substantial taxes while also producing a valuable need for society - now he is also expected to pay for the lazy doofus who thinks the mechanic should be expected to pick up the lazy doofus debt of close to 300 grand from fancy pants U (that also sucks in hundreds of millions of US TAX dollars - while simultaneously looking down it’s nose at said country) while pursuing said art history degree, spending the better part of 4-6 years partying - contributing nothing useful to society.

I’m right with Ms Fleming. She has spent a good deal of time here in Chicago in her involvement with the Lyric Opera. I’ve seen lots of local interviews she has done. Always strikes me as quite well spoken with well thought out intelligent dialogue and as a very down to earth person. The least “diva” Diva I’ve seen. I’ve always liked her. It takes a substantial person to go against the flow. That is especially noteworthy in the Arts where if you don’t follow the crowd you’ll find yourself quickly ostracized. Good for her for speaking the truth. Maybe just maybe it will get “heard” by those who are in need of a good dose of economic reality.