Piston valve care and lubrication

[gnimoyw]

Despite playing tubas for 25+ years, I have never had a piston valve horn. Always rotors, always BBb, always German. Until now. I recently bought a VMI 3301 piston valve horn. I don’t think the prior owner played it a lot in the recent years so I’ve been working to get it back to good playing condition.

My question is, how often do you lubricate piston valves? Daily or weekly? I’m using a valve oil lubricant I had on hand called T2. Any better choices out there or this will be sufficient? Any other pro tips and tricks to get the valves moving nice and fast? Otherwise it’s a really great horn, just want to work on the valve action as one or two seem a bit sluggish.

[DonO.]

It might not be a bad idea to take the horn to a shop to get a “valve job” to make sure they are clean and well fitted. If you don’t think the fit is the issue, then to answer your question more directly, it depends. Some valve oils evaporate quickly, others are more long lasting. You will get a variety of opinions, everyone has their favorite. I use Bach Synthetic Plus. It works very well, but has a tendency to evaporate quickly, so I need to oil at least every couple of days. As others answer your question, you will hear about regular vs synthetic oil, Blue Juice, Hetman’s, and Al Cass Fast. We even have a member who will say that ultra pure lamp oil works just as well if not better and is much cheaper than commercial valve oil. Good luck!

[gocsick]

Here is the giant valve oil thread...

https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=11054

[MiBrassFS]

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[donn]

Yeah, that's what I heard when I read "valve job." I think a fair amount of unsatisfactory valve performance may come from stuff creeping out from the adjacent tubing, so if things don't seem to be working right, industrial cleaning might do some good.

I don't think there's any frequency of oiling that's too frequent. Haw about this: if you can tell the difference, before/after applying oil, then probably it's not really often enough. (The inverse being less true.)

I happened across a commonly available lamp oil here that's about the right weight all by itself.

[DonO.]

I think Don’s intentions are very good above. I’d just be cautious on where you take an instrument for service . Asking for a valve job in some places may lead to some person in the back of a music store with a can of lapping compound (or Comet cleanser, Lava soap, etc.) doing bad things. (In repair guy speak valve job also means replating and fitting valves, too, so there’s that complication.)

BTW, I really like the 3301 tubas. Great tubas.

Totally agree with the above. To clarify: lapping should not be necessary. A heavy duty cleaning to get out any gunk would be the thing to do. Heck, with a used horn that you’re not sure how well it was maintained, a good chemical clean of the entire instrument certainly can’t hurt. But make sure it’s a shop with a good reputation. For as long as you’ve been playing tubas, surely you know a good shop? If not, depending on where you live, we might have recommendations.

By the way, we are quite similar. For many years I only played rotary horns (German and Czech) in BBb. Because of my circumstances (the particular teachers I ended up with), I avoided the entire CC thing. Then I took a long break from playing and when I came back I went piston (King 2341). I really like it! That said, I sometimes miss the rotors…

[bloke]

Oil every time you play.

Realize that instrument repairmen are just like people that work on your house or work on your car. A few of them know what they're doing.

[dp]

My question is, how often do you lubricate piston valves? Daily or weekly?

I'd buy something called "Al Cass Fast" oil and oil the valves every time I'd pick up the horn. So....daily at least, to answer your question. It is a very light oil that leaves no residue so the (constant) oiling keeps the valves flushed and smooth with no hangs. I hate that when they hang.

The advise about getting them cleaned/serviced is probably good, I didn't read through the thread to see if someone else mentioned that (sometimes) different oils are not compatable with each other and get gooey or sludgy

I played only rotors for many years before delving into piston horns, be sure to let us know how you're coming along with your new tuba!

[gnimoyw]

Thank you everyone for the thoughts and links! This has given me a few ideas to pursue, and I definitely might consider getting the horn cleaned (though it does seem pretty clean at the moment). I'll try the regular oiling approach for a bit and see if that eliminates any "hang."

[Yahnay-san]

Before a professional cleaning, you might be surprised how effective just running rags through the valve casings and wiping off the valves can be. Agree that frequent oiling beats searching for the “magic oil”.

[Mary Ann]

I think Don’s intentions are very good above. I’d just be cautious on where you take an instrument for service . Asking for a valve job in some places may lead to some person in the back of a music store with a can of lapping compound (or Comet cleanser, Lava soap, etc.) doing bad things. (In repair guy speak valve job also means replating and fitting valves, too, so there’s that complication.)

BTW, I really like the 3301 tubas. Great tubas.

I had a guy tell me he used PUMICE in the valves of my single high F horn. AND he put a valve in backwards --- and this was a store specializing in instruments that did not have low prices for repair work. Buyer beware, and make sure you get referrals from people with your same standards.

[arpthark]

My trusted repair guy who has been fixing horns for 40+ years, worked with Larry Minick in CA, uses pumice and lard as a lapping compound. Old school!

[MiBrassFS]

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[1 Ton Tommy]

I would be reluctant to use any abrasive as a cleaner. It seems counterintuitive that for example, a stainless piston would wear in a brass bore but the abrasive particles will embed in the softer metal and wear the harder metal every time the valve moves. This is true of various plain bearings too. Piston valves wear fast enough as it is without help of abrasives. If there is lime buildup use vinegar and soak the piston in that. I play gigs where I'm the bass and playing all the time. oiling once before a gig is not enough.

[Mary Ann]

The horn had a very strong "ancient brass smell." I had asked him to get the smell out if he could, not lap anything. Nothing needed lapping. Ultrasound didn't get it out, chem cleaning didn't get it out, maybe TSP would have but he used pumice on it.

[arpthark]

The horn had a very strong "ancient brass smell." I had asked him to get the smell out if he could, not lap anything. Nothing needed lapping. Ultrasound didn't get it out, chem cleaning didn't get it out, maybe TSP would have but he used pumice on it.

Yikes!

[dp]

Hi, I forgot to mention that it is much more economical to buy the "Al Cass Fast" oil by the case, which seemed to me to make sense since I use it so frequently. After you've tried a bottle, if you like it, shopping around can get you a 6 or 12 bottle "case" for a good savings over the per bottle price.