Contra flips

[Avuncular]

Hey fellow tubas, I have a really dumb question about contra flips. This season is my 2nd year marching tuba (specifically contra, and my 3rd year overall) and I have never been able to do a good contra flip. Theres this dude in my section (his 1st year marching contra but he started the same time) and he can do them amazingly. I'm just wondering if the reason I can't do them is because either I'm relativley shorter than most dudes doing this (5'7, Im a girl) or I'm not strong enough. I know how my hand is supposed to go and everything its just mine always kinda suck. So is this just because I'm not long or lanky, or just because I'm just strong enough to march? (also i just added technique flair because that seemed to match best)

[bloke]

I do a tremendous amount of instrument repair work every summer, and I'm busy repairing throughout the year..

Only one school that I'm currently servicing uses those things, and they're hoping to go to sousaphones, as soon as they can round up the money. Their contras are King - which are quite large and heavy (roughly 5/4 size with oversized bell diameters). They are awkward and unwieldy even to work on. When the whole contra thing began several decades ago, they were all the size of 3/4 tubas and the only tubing they had on them was enough to do two valves. ... For your sake, I hope your instrument doesn't have four valves.
The school that take I care of that uses those requires that the tuba section does calisthenics every day, and I believe there's a lot of upper body exercise to strengthen their back, chest, and arm muscles in order to be able to handle those things.

Back when schools were called junior high schools, I began doing some marching when I was in the 8th grade with a King sousaphone built in 1960 which was very thick brass, and weighed (no exaggeration) a full 30 lbs. It was too heavy for me and for my size, and I rested it on my shoulder incorrectly by partially resting it on the back of my neck - as so many sousaphone players do - and did permanent damage to my vertebrae in my neck area due to that stuff.

Regardless of your size and gender, I don't envy you.

[DonO.]

I do a tremendous amount of instrument repair work every summer, and I'm busy repairing throughout the year..

Only one school that I'm currently servicing uses those things, and they're hoping to go to sousaphones, as soon as they can round up the money. Their contras are King - which are quite large and heavy (roughly 5/4 size with oversized bell diameters). They are awkward and unwieldy even to work on. When the whole contra thing began several decades ago, they were all the size of 3/4 tubas and the only tubing they had on them was enough to do two valves. ... For your sake, I hope your instrument doesn't have four valves.
The school that take I care of that uses those requires that the tuba section does calisthenics every day, and I believe there's a lot of upper body exercise to strengthen their back, chest, and arm muscles in order to be able to handle those things.

Back when schools were called junior high schools, I began doing some marching when I was in the 8th grade with a King sousaphone built in 1960 which was very thick brass, and weighed (no exaggeration) a full 30 lbs. It was too heavy for me and for my size, and I rested it on my shoulder incorrectly by partially resting it on the back of my neck - as so many sousaphone players do - and did permanent damage to my vertebrae in my neck area due to that stuff.

Regardless of your size and gender, I don't envy you.

This doesn’t answer the OP question exactly, but just to +1 bloke’s post… and bloke, as you know , we are approximately the same age.

After switching briefly to baritone horn from trumpet, I switched to tuba in the 7th grade and used a fiberglass Sousaphone (both concert and marching). Then, in high school, we had beat to death heavy brass Sousaphones, until my director, who was drum corps obsessed, got us Meinl Weston model 10 “convertibles”, which could be switched from concert tubas to contras. These were 3/4 size 3 valve instruments, so not horribly bad to handle. That said, in retrospect, both Sousaphones and contras have their issues.

Now, in my curmudgeonly old age, I have come to the conclusion that marching band is at least somewhat contrary to good musicianship, because of the difficulty of maintaining proper embouchure and posture. However, if one must march, it is my belief that the ideal solution for tubas is neither Sousaphones nor contras. Rather, I like the British solution of using concert tubas with straps.

[Tubeast]

Disclaimer: I have no idea what exactly you´re required to do to flip a contra.
Also, you don´t mention what you´re identifying as your flaws:
- speed and timeliness of flipping movement?
- elegance and precision of execution?
- combination of both?

a few hints, though, which apply to ANY quick and elegant movement of weight:
- you´ll need to convey inertia (= mass x velocity) from your hands to the horn.
- no matter your strength, it´ll be a lot easier (i.e. more effective, effortless and elegant) if said inertia is created in the large muscle groups of your legs and torso, and much less with your arms.
- boxers do the same: Each punch is initiated in their feet and enhanced by leg-, hip-, and torso musculature while the arms "simply" (yeah, I know...) guide the flow of energy (= mass x velocity²).
- make sure both your hands act as a team to move the parts of the horn they touch along the path they individually need to move in order for the horn to do the flip.

Explanation of the latter point: imagine you hold the steering wheel of a car in both your hands and want to turn it in a clockwise rotation.
If your hands are in "three and nine" positions, your left hand needs to push straight up, while the right hand needs to pull straight down for most effective application of force.
If your hands are in "two and ten" positions, this is not ideal anymore: your left hand should push to the upper right and your right hand should pull towards the lower right direction in order to create most torque on the wheel with smallest effort.

[rollo]

I am also 5'7", you can definitely flip a contra!

I've always marched Yamaha contras so this may not apply for you, but I've found that as long as you start with your right hand in the correct position (thumb down, knuckles facing your body, holding on to the 1st & 3rd valve slides) and give the bottom bow a good push to start, you can just stick out your butt a little bit to make room for the horn to spin.

Start slow, do a little each day, be aware of your surroundings.

[Mary Ann]

One thing that has always stood out for me other than height with tubas, is their weight in proportion to mine, in terms of maneuvering them. My tubas are close to 25% of my weight. I'd love to see some of these big tuba playing guys with instruments that are 25% of their weight, with the equivalent less strength of an estrogen-dominated body.

[bloke]

One thing that has always stood out for me other than height with tubas, is their weight in proportion to mine, in terms of maneuvering them. My tubas are close to 25% of my weight. I'd love to see some of these big tuba playing guys with instruments that are 25% of their weight, with the equivalent less strength of an estrogen-dominated body.

Yes, when I diverted the topic to talk about carrying the 30 lb King sousaphone when in the 8th grade, I was referring to just that to which you refer, but I guess I didn't really stress the point and only offered the example... and I wasn't even expected to "flip" the 30-lb. sousaphone.

To be even more clear, what I see being done in videos looks difficult to me. I have handled those things removing dents from them (static holding of the entire instruments, while pulling them through dent-ironing machines with quite a bit of friction). What I see large people do is a likely somewhat athletically challenging to them, and I see it (just as me in the 8th grade just CARRYING the 30-lbs. sousaphone) as particularly difficult for a smaller person.

[russiantuba]

I’m probably going to be targeted for this, but I’m going to go with it anyways.

I saw a post about a high school band considering going from sousaphones to contras. I thought, unless you want to alienate people, such as smaller stature people, and people like myself with no upper body strength or balance, going to contra is going to get yourself a section of macho muscle types, it probably won’t be as inclusive.

The first year I taught college, my school hosted a drum corp that summer, where they wanted me to come out to consult on their new line of contras. I told them I never did DCI and have very limited experience (like maybe 5 minutes total) on contrabass bugles, but they still wanted me to come out (and not pay). My arms, at the time 6’0 and 300lbs, didn’t have the strength to stand for a while, and I’m sure they will do horn flips and such which requires control.

I could go in way more detail with other things from that experience that don’t have to do with this, but I remember walking back to my car, sore, thinking if my high school had done these instead of sousaphones, I would have dropped out of band for this reason alone and still would have found a way to go into music.

[rollo]

I’m probably going to be targeted for this, but I’m going to go with it anyways.

I hope you don't feel targeted.....but I feel like I hear these kinds of impressions a lot when it comes to contra. I really believe, having marched a contra for 20 years, that the idea that the horn is just too big for some people to handle kind of silly on it's face. Women have been participating in DCI for dozens of years now and the activity has only moved toward more inclusion, not less.

I auditioned for and was cut from Phantom Regiment way back in 2007, and there were multiple women, all smaller than me in every measurable way, who were not only asked to come back to the next camps but ended up marching that entire season. There is way more 'mind over matter' involved than I think most people give credit for, and honestly modern contras are just not the same 40lb beasts we remember from the days of the G horn. Heck, the Yamaha contra (imo the best marching horn for a myriad of reasons) is only 24.5 lbs, just under half of what most normal folks would have to agree they are able to lift at any regular job. Watch any drum corps show from the last decade and you'll see no corps asks their contras to march in the 'chop' (horn held vertically in front of you, bell facing the ground) for much more than 25 seconds at a time, and likely less than 2 minutes during the whole production.

If your organization is serious about marching and being innovative in that space, the answer is contras. Very much in my personal opinion, they are safer (if you fall/trip/get bumped, so many more options for ditching or moving the horn out of the way than a sousa), more uniform (all the brass are essentially in the same shape at all positions be it horns up, horns at chop, or horns at trail), and are more flexible (sousa horn visuals are certainly possible, but the options with contras are just so much more in terms of what you can do and how long it takes to actually set up and do a visual move).

As long as I'm on this tangent, I also think the sound is just more appropriate for the medium. I personally think the idea that people are able to, in a vaccum, identify a contra sound vs a sousa sound, is pretty ridiculous. I think there is so much variation from the player to the mouthpiece that affect the sound more. But even if I grant that idea that the sounds are just fundamentally and noticeably different, I think the brighter more direct sound of a contra is more fitting for a drum corps sound. Now, if you want to just sound like a concert band that's moving, that's your prerogative. But concert bands and wind ensembles already exist making those sounds, and trying to replicate or approximate that classic G bugle sound (which I actually think is much more a result of arrangement with all the parts being written so much higher in the staff to accommodate for the lack of valves) isn't a bad thing and helps the musical pageantry space remain separate and on it's own track of development.

I will absolutely agree that sousas have a lower barrier to entry, but I also think that barrier doesn't exist for very long if you seriously just practice holding and maneuvering the horn.

[1 Ton Tommy]

I never marched with contras but with sousaphones. They were heavy. I weighed all of 145 lbs. In the ensuing 60 years I gained about 45 lbs of muscle which then went soft. And now I have to swing a 23 lb tuba off the floor... carefully. One caution I might make is to be careful of your shoulder muscles eg. the rotator cuffs. I have injured these over-lifting weights and it took forever to heal. Find someone to give you instruction on weight lifting to carefully acquire the strength to pull this off. One part of it it strength and the other is technique and you need both. Women in my day were not encouraged to develop upper body strength but that is necessary to do what you are asked to do. Be careful because these youthful injuries can stay with you for a lifetime as I know only too well.

[russiantuba]

I’m probably going to be targeted for this, but I’m going to go with it anyways.

I hope you don't feel targeted.....but I feel like I hear these kinds of impressions a lot when it comes to contra. I really believe, having marched a contra for 20 years, that the idea that the horn is just too big for some people to handle kind of silly on it's face. Women have been participating in DCI for dozens of years now and the activity has only moved toward more inclusion, not less.

I auditioned for and was cut from Phantom Regiment way back in 2007, and there were multiple women, all smaller than me in every measurable way, who were not only asked to come back to the next camps but ended up marching that entire season. There is way more 'mind over matter' involved than I think most people give credit for, and honestly modern contras are just not the same 40lb beasts we remember from the days of the G horn. Heck, the Yamaha contra (imo the best marching horn for a myriad of reasons) is only 24.5 lbs, just under half of what most normal folks would have to agree they are able to lift at any regular job. Watch any drum corps show from the last decade and you'll see no corps asks their contras to march in the 'chop' (horn held vertically in front of you, bell facing the ground) for much more than 25 seconds at a time, and likely less than 2 minutes during the whole production.

If your organization is serious about marching and being innovative in that space, the answer is contras. Very much in my personal opinion, they are safer (if you fall/trip/get bumped, so many more options for ditching or moving the horn out of the way than a sousa), more uniform (all the brass are essentially in the same shape at all positions be it horns up, horns at chop, or horns at trail), and are more flexible (sousa horn visuals are certainly possible, but the options with contras are just so much more in terms of what you can do and how long it takes to actually set up and do a visual move).

As long as I'm on this tangent, I also think the sound is just more appropriate for the medium. I personally think the idea that people are able to, in a vaccum, identify a contra sound vs a sousa sound, is pretty ridiculous. I think there is so much variation from the player to the mouthpiece that affect the sound more. But even if I grant that idea that the sounds are just fundamentally and noticeably different, I think the brighter more direct sound of a contra is more fitting for a drum corps sound. Now, if you want to just sound like a concert band that's moving, that's your prerogative. But concert bands and wind ensembles already exist making those sounds, and trying to replicate or approximate that classic G bugle sound (which I actually think is much more a result of arrangement with all the parts being written so much higher in the staff to accommodate for the lack of valves) isn't a bad thing and helps the musical pageantry space remain separate and on it's own track of development.

I will absolutely agree that sousas have a lower barrier to entry, but I also think that barrier doesn't exist for very long if you seriously just practice holding and maneuvering the horn.

I never did mention gender, but to remain completely still during band camp for 10 minutes without flinching or having to run (that’s what it was like when I was in high school), and it goes for upper body strength, which I admit, I have none, and never have had any. Size has nothing to do with strength. I once used a bench press to try it out. I lifted the bar somewhat evenly after several tries and my spotter laughed when he said there were no weights on it.

There seems to be a trend for high school groups to think they are mini DCI groups, some allowing 8th graders to march, and some, like my high school back in the day (and my undergrad), unless you were a double reed, you HAD to march your instrument, and had to do marching to be in band ensembles. Exceptions were made for instruments like sousaphone that needed more members, and was more for visual effect.

I have seen some instances that contradict this, but far too often, visual is going to override the musical aspect. If choosing alternates, the strongest marcher visually is going to win out. If the OP can’t do the flips, are they at risk for not marching and being sidelined?

[Jperry1466]

Now, in my curmudgeonly old age, I have come to the conclusion that marching band is at least somewhat contrary to good musicianship, because of the difficulty of maintaining proper embouchure and posture. However, if one must march, it is my belief that the ideal solution for tubas is neither Sousaphones nor contras. Rather, I like the British solution of using concert tubas with straps.

I agree with your first sentence. Marching band is contrary to good musicianship for the reason you stated as well as....well, marching bands are not "musical" and were never meant to be, excepting military marching to the old warhorse marches, which can be musically done by a very good band.

I marched with both fiberglass and brass Sousaphones in the 60s. My small college band director decided to get our section some Meinl-Weston model 11 uprights (4 valves and not convertible), which we used with straps that caused them to bounce all over the place, making for impossible embouchure control, and with those small upright bells, only God could hear the tuba section. The advantage to the Sousaphone (and I assume the Contra) is that the horn and your shoulder move with the rest of the body, keeping the mouthpiece pretty much in one place. Having had braces on my teeth as a youth, the Sousaphone was by far the easiest marching instrument on my chops. But a young kid carrying a heavy brass Sousaphone will adapt how he carries it, causing later damage to his spine and shoulders.

All that said, I'm afraid I've wandered far away from the OP's question, and sad to say, I can't offer any insight on flipping a contra, as I marched before they were a "thing".

[travisd]

Never played contra, but I have seen a sousaphone twirl go terribly wrong, resulting in a busted fiberglass bell during a high school competition. I believe it was maybe more related to the height of the twirler, not their strength.