Mouthpieces and Intonation

[1 Ton Tommy]

Have any of you many knowledgeable tuba players out there studied the effect of mouthpieces on intonation?

I read the Mouthpiece Gap thread which got me to thinking about the impact of mouthpieces on intonation. In the last 6 months I've gone from one tuba and two mouthpieces to now having three tubas and three mouthpieces. I can tell that the mouthpiece changes the timbre of each tuba more dramatically than a trumpet but aside from that I can't tell if they make a difference in sharp vs flat in different parts of the tuba register. There are far more variables on intonation with a tuba and I haven't played the new horns enough yet to sort out the mouthpiece role in that.

On trumpet, I am aware that one mouthpiece, a Schilke 16A4A has a tendency to make my main trumpet sharp above the staff and another, the Schilke 20D2 makes it flat below the staff and the Bach 1-1/2C is fairly neutral. I don't know what causes that. Is it backbore? cup depth, bowl shape all of the above? It would be nice to know in advance rather than having to buy a dozen tuba mouthpieces and experiment at $150 a pop. I know the rims I like and the one I'm willing to put up with to get the upper register bark. I already have a bunch of trumpet mouthpieces but I'd like to keep the tuba mouthpieces to a limit.

[gocsick]

I tried to look into this and found all kinds of conflicting information.

I can tell you that.. shallow cup tends sharp for me. So for the Bobo Symphonic in the MW20 I need a longer main tuning slide pull than with a deeper bowl.

For older tubas, like my Eb, with octave compression... flat lower octaves and sharp upper.... a deeper cup helps flatten the upper register.

[bloke]

Unless someone like Mary Ann can tell that a mouthpiece is too wide for their face... or person like me (with a fairly short distance between their mouth opening and the bottom of their nose) can look at that outside diameter of a rim and be able to tell that it's going to mash up against their nose cartilage (between their nostrils) in the low range...

It's really hard to tell how a mouthpiece is going to play by reading a bunch of published numbers.

A return policy - assuming new condition and no scuffed shank - is the thing to do... unless it's used and then just resell it used.

Maybe I'm the pot calling the kettle black here, but maybe don't assume it's because something cost $375 that it's going to be wonderful... or that a trombone mouthpiece whiz knows much more about tuba mouthpieces than looking at popular models... I play some euphonium and apparently John Mueller thinks well enough to play in a tuba quartet with him - LOL - but I don't pretend to know enough about euphonium mouthpieces to offer one up for sale. I'm still in the "hey this one seems to work better for me than that one with this instrument" learning stage with euphonium mouthpieces. (My three piece stainless steel tuba mouthpieces' base price is $250, and add-ons can cause them to creep up close to $300, but most people pay $250... I'm striving to keep my one piece silver plated brass stuff below the $200 range so it's not too much more expensive than the stock name brand stuff.)

[donn]

I have noticed that the pitch I'm playing depends on how I play. I.e., I can play more in tune if I make an effort. I suspect this isn't a unique talent of mine - but I suspect that my tuba playing technique isn't the same as everyone else's, we're each a little different.

So that's the basis for my theory: there isn't some combination of tuba|mouthpiece that we can endorse as "plays in tune", but rather a combination of player|mouthpiece, depending on how intonation problems arise for the player.

[Grumpikins]

I have been experimenting with different mouthpeices for about a year now. It started when I had rushed out to a rehearsal and forgot mine so I had to borrow one. The difference was shocking. So I started talking to friends, researching online, taking my own measurements of mouthpieces. Which I have posted here. I'm no expert, but in my opinion, some mouthpieces definitely effect intonation. It's not extreme, but it can make playing easier or more difficult. It seems to vary from instrument to instrument and person to person. I'm currently using a schilke 67 and a houser/bloke modular combo. I really like how the modular set up gives me more options and the different shanks work with the different tubas I have. I intend to expand my collection of modular parts and may eventually switch entirely to that. It's more of a long term investment like collecting tools for different things as needed over time.

[bloke]

Mouthpieces are given a little bit too much credit as far as tuning... If not way too much credit.

Shallow mouthpieces with smaller throats (or one or the other) are going to make a tuba easier to favor in tune with the embouchure, air, and mouth opening size.

Shallower mouthpieces are going to offer a slightly higher pitch level throughout the range of the instrument and deep cut mouthpieces are going to offer a slightly lower pitch level throughout the range of the instrument, given the same temperature and main tuning slide position. Pretty soon, it's going to be realized that all of the same tuba's tuning quirks with one mouthpiece are there with another... Just at a slightly different pitch level and maybe (again).easier to favor in tune with one mouthpiece vs. another.

Big tubas are going to play quite sharp when the temperature goes up a few degrees and quite flat when it goes down a few degrees. Medium size and small tubas are going to do that as well, but they're going to achieve optimum operating temperature from the player's body much quicker and retain it much easier.

It's not unusual for particular partials that might be barely flat at operating temperature to be quite flat when an instrument is cold, because likely those partials are sensitive to the very large end of the tuba which is the part that warms up last.

mouthpiece-shcmouthpiece

The concern with mouthpieces should be how easily they achieve the type of resonance that is desired, how comfortable they are, and how much sound energy they produce for how much operator work.

Also, I don't know a damn thing about mouthpieces, but - even at that - I may have learned slightly more than some of you... and - even when some people claim that their mouthpieces designs are based on science - that's fine. I seem to do pretty good without it and only relying on trial and error...along with my wife's tastes in sounds. Having spoken with a few other mouthpiece makers - who do their own manufacturing, and who are absolutely candid - they don't claim to be physicists.

me...??
The rim contour seems to be the most vital part and the thing that affects my ability to play the most.
(I personally don't care for massive rims that pin my face down and affect my ability to subtly shape my facial muscles for range jumps and legato playing. A wide massive rim - to me - is anything but a "cushion". It's not like it's soft like a pillow, and the same amount of contact pressure is simply going to be applied to more area. I also don't care for sharp interior edged rims that function as if cookie cutters, as they also restrict facial muscle movement and - therefore - actually do the opposite of contributing to accuracy.)
Others seem to shrug off the importance of this feature.

[York-aholic]

As a complete ‘know nothing’ what about rim (ID) diameter? How would one choose a diameter for say a 4/4 BBb and another for a medium Eb?

Or say a player has one they’re pretty happy with for the BBb would they logical look for a smaller diameter for the Eb instrument?

[bloke]

As a complete ‘know nothing’ what about rim (ID) diameter? How would one choose a diameter for say a 4/4 BBb and another for a medium Eb?

Or say a player has one they’re pretty happy with for the BBb would they logical look for a smaller diameter for the Eb instrument?

I believe it depends on what a particular player is trying to do with an E flat instrument or an F instrument.
Did you click on a video that I posted recently of a particular moment in the fifth movement of the Berlioz ?

Without spending a couple of weeks in "training" so to speak (because I don't spend much time practicing and octave above the bass clef staff when I'm swamped with repair work, because there's nothing written there for the tuba...well almost nothing that people will pay me money to play), I can't play that lick right now with my regular F tuba mouthpiece, but I can play it easily and it sounds quite good (yes?) with the mouthpiece I used... But if I'm going to play that same tuba with a brass quintet and mostly play bass lines and only a few solo passages none of which are much higher than the top of the bass clef staff, that same mouthpiece isn't going to produce the type of sound that I want for that type of music.

[MiBrassFS]

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[Levaix]

Three observations, the first two which I have found to be true with euphonium and tuba:

1. Some horns are more mouthpiece sensitive than others when it comes to intonation. A horn that is relatively "point and shoot" in that it has good "slots" where the notes consistently sit will be forgiving when it comes to mouthpiece choice. In these cases, pick for sound, flexibility, and efficiency. On the other hand, when you have a horn that allows you to more easily bend the pitch upward or downward, different mouthpieces can have a dramatic effect on intonation, both in general and for specific notes. I remember trying to compare two mouthpieces on my B&S euphonium and having to adjust my third valve slide over an inch for certain notes to play in tune.

2. What others have noted about smaller mouthpieces playing sharper and larger mouthpieces playing flat is true. In my experience, it ALSO seems to be true that small/bowl-shaped cups tend to have more defined slots, where large/funnel-shaped cups allow more wiggle room to place the note. Depending on your particular instrument's tendencies and existing intonation, this can be either a positive or a negative. I'm sure backbore and other design considerations have an effect on this as well, but I don't know enough to give any real insight here. (It's also entirely possible that the differences I've noticed have been totally coincidental to the cup size and shape, but there does seem to be at least some pattern.)

3. Some older instruments (early 20th century and before) were clearly designed for the mouthpieces in use at that time, which for tuba and euphonium were usually smaller than what we play today. Trying to play a large mouthpiece on a very old instrument sometimes leads to extremely poor results in both sound and intonation.

[1 Ton Tommy]

There is a vast array of factors affecting sound and I'm not looking for a universal mouthpiece. That doesn't exist. What I hope to find is what mouthpiece makers doubtless know: what are the effects of back-bore taper, of bowl shape, and of bore size on intonation of tubas. Absent back-bore taper, those are the specs I see listed in the catalogues. Things such as rim diameter, width and shape are specific to a player's preference, playing style, lips and mouth size. The others I'm guessing are relative to the instrument. For older smaller-bore instruments would smaller-bore mouthpieces be in order of are there other factors?

Of course, as I have learned from experience and training, the shape one makes with the tongue affects the resonant characteristics of the sound as do the size and shape of the sinus cavities. See Sarah Willis excellent video showing an MRI image of her playing various pitches on her horn.


I do this sort of thing intentionally when vibrato is called for and to play at the upper and lower extremes of range on trumpet and doubtless unconsciously in the midrange as well. Below the staff I have to remember I'm not playing tuba and close up the space so my sound doesn't become "blatty."

I've found, playing the Mammoth on a stand that I move my mouth angle relative to the mouthpiece much more than I thought and the stand is an impediment. I know I do this intentionally on trumpet and have imitated the best soloists as they move the mouthpiece on their face. I had not realized the extent to which I do this unconsciously on tuba.

[1 Ton Tommy]

Don't overlook the other video Sarah produced showing the scientific analysis of her tongue movement.
https://www.dw.com/en/sarahs-music-musi ... o-18404705

[bloke]

Always the one to piss people off by being blunt in regards to my views...

There are all sorts of tubas that I avoid buying for my personal use, but these are some of them:

- main tuning slide trigger on board
- adjustable gap receiver installed
- claims that an instrument is mouthpiece sensitive

When I see any of these, I tend to read "plays out of tune".

[MiBrassFS]

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[arpthark]

Those earlier American Eb tubas were made to be used with a smaller, bowl-shaped mouthpiece. When “Monsters” and “Giants” roamed the earth, for example, that was the common style in use. When people plug in a modern, deep, large mouthpiece in them, the results and reaction is often negative.

I have a small "All-Star E-Bass" mouthpiece that works really well on turn-of-the-century E-flats.

[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

Even if a tuba has the typical 12 cents (or whatever) flat fifth partial open D or E (along with the issue of the neighboring D flat or E flat) - and that's the ONLY reason someone stuck one of those on their instrument - it's a huge red flag, since most everyone buys from pictures and almost no one drives to the tuba to play an inspected in person (such as do Wade and I).

Truth be told, even with an excellent-intonation instrument, that device is probably often handy for those two particular pitches plus the fourth partial 2-3 combination pitch...and maybe even 8th partial...