How many tubas and euphoniums does a 50 or 60 piece wind band really need?

[kingrob76]

I'm going to take the assumption that everyone in the ensemble can play a high or moderately-high level.

At 50, 2 euphs, 2 tubas, 5 perc, 3 trombones, 4 horns, 4 saxes (2 alto, 1 tenor and bari), 2 bassoons, 8 trumpets, 11 Bb clarinets, 1 Eb clarinet, 1 bass clarinet, 1 contrabass clarinet, 2 oboes, 3 flutes, 1 piccolo.

At 60, 2 euphs and 3 tubas, 1 Dbl Bass, 5 perc, 4 trombones, 5 horns, 4 saxes (2 alto, 1 tenor and bari), 2 bassoons, 10 trumpets, 14 Bb clarinets, 1 Eb clarinet, 1 contrabass clarinet, 2 bass clarinet, 2 oboes, 4 flutes, 1 piccolo.

I would not want 1 euph or tuba until the size got down to below 40, if it were me.

[Schlitzz]

No alto clarinets, or drummers, eh? Good man.

[2nd tenor]

A Brass Band has two Euphoniums, two Eb Basses and two BBb Basses for a standard band of circa twenty six players.

Most prefer the 2BBb and 3Ebs. Been that way for as long as I can remember.

Here in the UK the standard and expected numbers are two of each, most (UK) Bands are ‘contesting’ and a set configuration is required for that. What happens in the USA might be different and we both speak of our own experiences. My own Band does not contest, so numbers aren’t limited, but when new music is bought (here in the UK) the sets supplied contain two Eb and two BBb tuba parts.

Whatever, I only stated numbers (in my earlier post) as a way of illustrating established balances of voices within playing groups. In a Wind Band there are other bass voices besides that of the brass section so they’ll need to be taken account of. If in doubt have a look at what the music publishers’ standard sets are scored for.

[bloke]

Whether it's one of the rare orchestral pieces that calls for two or whether it's a wind band, if I'm walking up to play in an ensemble (orchestra or wind band) and deferring to someone else as designated principal, I'm going to be uncomfortable unless they are a very strong player who plays out with as much volume as required on the loudest passages and can also play with control softly enough to not cover up the contrabass clarinet/bassoon... along with beginning their sound events simultaneously with the snare drum (instead of "following" the snare drum) and not submitting to their instruments' tuning quirks. If not all of these plus perhaps some innate/implied phrasing, I'm going to find a leading player sort of difficult to match.

I can think of four past and present local players who I'd be comfortable doubling parts with in a wind band. I went to high school with two of them - both who went on to be US Army tuba players... One is deceased and one no longer plays... Another one is a local amateur who plays very well, the other is a professional in his mid-70s who plays with very good pitch and time. (thousands and thousands worldwide who fit these requirements, but only a couple locally, at least in my view... though - admittedly - I haven't been over to the university and met any of the graduate students.)

If not teamed up with one or maybe two other players like the ones I'm thinking of in the previous paragraph, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer just cover the tuba part by myself in a wind band. I ended up doing this in college. Originally, the strongest three auditioners were put in the so-called "symphonic wind ensemble" (you know: band). One of them was one of my high school buddies who (after a month or so of spring semester playing) quit school to go play in the Army (tuba and bass guitar in Germany) and one of them proved to simply not be able to negotiate the literature, and was sent down to one of the other bands... so it ended up being just me.

Have fun checking out the 1970's hair styles, clown-sized bow ties, hair styles, and such:
(I'm seeing about fifty folks...all very strong players...To my right - in the picture, is trumpeter, Dave Duro - later of Burning River Brass, etc...the clarinet player - left - could play the stew out of the von Weber Concertino, so she would be featured on this band's recruiting tours.)

due diligence: The ladies on the left edge of the picture were not portly in the least...The picture was taken with one of those "wide angle" lenses, obviously.

top right hand corner: Conn 22K short-action sousaphones (original version with fiberglass 4th branches and actual fiberglass bell flares)

bass trombone: That instrument is an Elkhart/1969 62H, bought new.
These are rare enough, but this one is particularly rare, as they were only made in Elkhart for one year, and production was quite limited that year.
Here's a picture of one (probably not Elkhart)
https://thebrass-exchange.com/sites/def ... 0008_4.jpg

[arpthark]

@bloke are there any recordings of that group available?

[bloke]

@bloke are there any recordings of that group available?

There was an l.p...
Once or twice, I tried (not particularly diligently) to find a copy.
I wasn't interested enough (at the time) to even ask for one..which would have probably been given to me...
I'm thinking they were mailed out to high schools (again: recruiting)
I only can remember one of the pieces that we recorded...

...the Vincent Persichetti Masquerade (probably...at least one piece was Persichetti...I think )
edit. I just checked youtube to verify (by sound) that this Persichetti was on the l.p...The first video was UNT - covering the tuba part with three (count 'em: three) PT-6P tubas.

[Tubeast]

I really enjoy sharing a part with a strong, experienced section mate.
Someone to work out breathing patterns with.
It´s a pleasure to be able to somewhat back-off and play with relaxed resolution rather than brute force.

On many occasions, I do not have that luxury (simply because not too many conductors call in reinforcement to an already functional tuba section) and am lucky if people are willing and able to use the right combination of valve and buzz at the desired time. In those cases, I tend to play as if I were the only tubist, which is a pity.

So I´m a fan of at least three tubas (one of which MAY be a bass tuba) and 4 or more tenor horn / Baryton / Euph.

[bloke]

Were it that tuba players were corporately/commonly as sensitive to pitch as are fine section violinists, as well as phrasing, timing, articulation style, length of sounds, various amounts of decay, appropriate interpretation of dynamic markings, and many other related issues in regards to any particular musical situation.

bloke "risking coming off as a snob who thinks he plays better than he does"

[Mark]

I play in three bands similar to yours. Each has two euphoniums, two tubas and a string bass. Also, two of them have a contrabass clarinet.

[2nd tenor]

A Brass Band has two Euphoniums, two Eb Basses and two BBb Basses for a standard band of circa twenty six players.

Most prefer the 2BBb and 3Ebs. Been that way for as long as I can remember.

^^ This is a case of YMMV, here in the UK - which is arguably where Brass Bands originated - the standard is as I stated above, but elsewhere might well be different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_band
https://www.bandsman.co.uk/writing.htm (See section on instrumentation).

Whatever, it’s mostly academic and we don’t need to fall-out over such things.

[bloke]

I have yet to have played in the wind band - brass and woodwinds - with one player on a part - even though people always like to talk about it.
When I play in orchestras that pay fairly well, the quality of the clarinet players is such that the individual players can generate a tremendous amount of sound if they choose to, as well as whisper if they choose to. It's the same with all the other wind players. The Memphis Symphony doesn't (does not) pay any $2,000 a week - and it only pays for about as many weeks a year as there are weeks in the school year, but - when I've played the Stravinsky bear duet with him - (OMG) Andre Dyachenko (principal clarinet) puts out some sound, and I mean a whole bunch of tremendously loud high quality sound.
All symphony orchestras do pops concerts, and they all routinely as needed bring in first call saxophone players from time to time. Sometime, I'd like to play a band concert with one of these orchestras' wind sections with an additionally hired euphonium, four saxophones, perhaps a contrabass clarinetist (beyond the individual clarinet 1 and 2 players and the bass clarinet player, and maybe even an additional E-flat soprano player).
I would just like the experience of having played a few band pieces one time in one concert in a no-scufflers one-on-a-part band.

[Mary Ann]

Depends on the players. Some either don't want to or cannot blow. If it's FF, they need to be able to blow and not sound like a buzz saw. There are occasional ones who can project, but honestly, it is somewhat rare around here. Maybe it's because so many in local bands are not young any more.

[1 Ton Tommy]

It seem a real luxury to have so many instruments and players available to fill a group such as Black Dike Mills Band. Our local symphony of 40-50 (depending on how many strings we can round up by concert time), has a first-call reed man for pops events, of which the music director promised there will be more. He just turned 85 last week and there is nobody in waiting. The second clarinet doesn't play sax so far as I know.

Pops isn't too stressing on the tuba. Tends to be 1-5 or sometime a walking bass line. In any case, there's room to breathe and I have the Dbl basses for support. Not so some orchestral parts where as the sole tuba my 6+ liter lungs run empty before the end of a string of whole notes. I have called for 4th horn support and gotten it but we only have two horns, one of whom is playing a horn I lent her. The other is the high school band master.

In small-town bands/orchestras you go to concert with the players you've got not the players you want (to paraphrase Dick Cheney) and find a way to make it work. When we had three trumpets, I played 2nd clarinet parts and as the tuba have played many 3rd trombone parts and some bassoon parts too, with the string basses mopping the basement floor wile I was off bassoon or trombone duty.

I think covering several voices in the orchestra or band gives a player an appreciation for phrasing and intonation that perhaps someone who has only played tuba didn't get. Granted, lack of focus leaves me wanting on some of the demanding literature like Die Meistersinger but I do alright on Night on Bald Mountain and excel on Sousa pieces. We do Liberty Bell in honor of the local high school of that name. And I can still play much of the euphonium part to Col. Bogey from memory. My high school marching band of at least 60 played that to honor the Queen at Victoria Days celebration in B.C. Canada about 60 years ago. It was fun to hear it echoing off the tall buildings.

[bloke]

To cover most all the parts in a wind band score with one person on each part, it would require roughly thirty winds and perhaps four or five percussionists, yes?

Who is old enough and lucky enough to have played in Fred Fennell's Eastman wind ensemble? if any of those people are within this group, was it actually one on a part?

[sweaty]

I can't tell you about Fennell's group, but John Paynter's Symphonic Wind Ensemble at Northwestern was one on each part plus double clarinets. The instrumentation changed for each piece.

[the elephant]

Joe, in short: no. I have an LP called SCREAMERS that the EWE recorded sometime around 1965… maybe 1968…? It was all circus marches, and my first teacher was the bass bone. There were two tubas, John MacEnulty and Dan Perantoni… *maybe* two euphs. I cannot remember who he was, but he wasn't someone "famous"* at the time I got the record, which was around 1984.

My Army band's TO&E called for our 55-piece band to have three tubas and two euphoniums permanently assigned. We usually ran with a 30-piece concert band with one of each and one on a part, except for six clarinets, four saxes, and five trumpets. We had like five drummers back there, too, but just as in the civilian world, they are not really a part of the picture, and are more of an add-on chip…

___________
*NOT FAMOUS = not part of the CMC stable of clinicians and "guest artists"…

[MN_TimTuba]

My buddy Paul and I have played tuba together in a couple of community bands for well over 30 years. We are both former HS band directors, for what that's worth. I completely love playing with him. We have different strengths that mesh well. From time to time we've had various others in our section, but not usually more than one season, and I really prefer just the two of us. On any divisi parts Paul always takes the higher, I grunt out the lower, and I'll humbly state that we sound pretty good. He's in his 80's, I'm in my prime (well, 67), neither is ego-driven, and both play King 2341 horns (intonation and blending are a breeze). For some health reasons there have been a few concerts I've played alone, and I like being able to (as Joe puts it) drive the bus and really play with energy, but overall I can't imagine playing without Paul on a regular basis. We're more than a section, we're a team
Our current concert band has well over 60 members. We have 3 to 4 euphs, all mostly average, so we really need them all for volume.
FWIW, my favorite section to listen to is our 10-piece trumpet section; my 2nd favorite is the clarinet section when they are ALL there - including Eb soprano, Eb alto, and Eb contra. A deep, rich sound, especially on Christmas music. Oh and my wife of 44 years is on clarinet, just like when we met back in college.

[MN_TimTuba]

By the way, Wade - the last school in which I taught had that Screamers album, and I played the heck out of it. Before I left I recorded it to cassette and still have it. Wonderful music, fabulous low Brass!

[bloke]

I'm beginning to wonder if the one on a part wind ensemble thing is mythical.

[the elephant]

By the way, Wade - the last school in which I taught had that Screamers album, and I played the heck out of it. Before I left I recorded it to cassette and still have it. Wonderful music, fabulous low Brass!

If you still have access to the liner notes, please post a photo of them! (I am guessing this is a big negatory, but it never hurts to ask.)

The bass trombonist (Emory Remington's old studio on this record) was my first teacher, Pete Kline. He was one of the best trombonists I ever knew, and a genuinely kind person. He passed a few years ago, and I miss him.

I am fairly certain that the tubas were Perantoni and Macenulty, but Mr. P may be getting confused in my mind as he once was the principal tuba in the San Antonio Symphony (for like a year?) before Mike Sanders got the gig. So it may be someone else. I am certain that John MacEnulty was one of them, though.