What F tubas do I look for

[CamTuba]

Hello fellow Tubists! I am a high school student who has been searching for an F tuba for a long time now. I made a post a while back and received a lot of responses, but my teacher advised me to look for more common tubas to buy (e.g., 822, Firebird, etc.). While I understand his concern, it is not common to find these models in California, and much less in the Bay Area. What other horns should be on my radar? Is there a store (besides the Horn Guys) on the West Coast that may have the horns my teacher recommends? I am also open to Eastman instruments due to my good experiences with my 832.

[russiantuba]

I’d probably wait till college for F tuba.

I didn’t play F until my junior year. Probably good to get a better grasp on the big horn and wait till you decide on a school.

I’d invest in a trip to Ferguson music in the LA metro or a tuba conference to play all the models you can.

[bloke]

It seems like most people (based on most models produced today) are looking for a short higher-pitched version of a contrabass tuba, which basically sounds like a contrabass tuba, but whereby the likelihood of missing high pitches is lowered.

That's not what I prefer and not what I have, but that's what I mostly see being produced and sold.

[prodigal]

I played a B&S Symphonie from my sophomore through super-senior years of college (the State of PA changed their teacher certification requirements so to year 5 I went, luckily the state schools were cheap back then!). It was love at first sight, raw brass, the tone of liquid platinum.

I absolutely loved the Symphonie, the most rewarding instrument I've ever played, yes them couple of notes were work, but everything else was wonderful. I looked forward to practicing everyday with it. I later bought a PT-15 which had an easier low range, but not the singing tone of the Symphonie, it lacked the response and went down the road.

Do you have a good contrabass tuba, yet? IMHO:

Contrabass tuba (BBb or CC) is your heavy duty work truck, it makes the money and pays the bills
Bass tuba (Eb or F) the sports car. Once you play one, you'll understand. The handling should be extremely responsive, like a finely tuned race car.

I'm with bloke, if I want to sound like a contrabass, I'll play a big horn. I want a German rotary F sound, and there are so many new options.

What would you equate to a GDR Symphonie modernized with the same response and tone, it seems that much engineering has been applied to F tubas to work on "those notes." I'm pretty familiar with the old B&S line, Mirafone seems to have a whole arsenal of Fs now, how do they measure up to the B&S horns?

[MiBrassFS]

.

[prodigal]

Most of them “F-in’” tubas play too sharp. Like a whole step too sharp. Except for the one I own now. My teacher picked it out specifically for me after playing and owning and selling several F tubas over a number years. His opinion is really important to me. It’s actually the only that matters.

“Autodidact.”

They Symphonie was wonderful with intonation, but she was tweaked over the years. The PT-15 was okay. I tried a Gronitz that you could have shaved with! Sharp on every single note, sounded good for a piston F, but yikes!

[tubatodd]

It seems like most people (based on most models produced today) are looking for a short higher-pitched version of a contrabass tuba, which basically sounds like a contrabass tuba, but whereby the likelihood of missing high pitches is lowered.

That's not what I prefer and not what I have, but that's what I mostly see being produced and sold.

This is a VERY astute observation. In my latter years of college, I owned a Meinl Weston 2165 and a Yamaha 822 F tuba. The Yamaha was an outstanding F tuba. I used it mostly for bass tuba solos/excerpts. But as @bloke said it was basically like a smaller contrabass tuba with an easier upper range. In fact, I used that horn in many cases where a contra bass tuba would be appropriate, but didn't need to bring a 6/4 horn.

I used it with the Vine City Six in Hammondsport, NY when I was subbing for my professor, circa 2000. It was plenty big for these types of gigs, even an outdoor gazebo.


What would I buy now? I would absolutely buy a Yamaha 822 F, but that is because I had such a wonderful experience with that horn. I have zero experience with any of these Chinese horns.

[Mary Ann]

A good reason to wait for college is that a LOT will change for you in the next few years, and that tuba that calls to you now may be very ho-hum or even yuck in a few years.

That said, if you can afford a nice, easily-resold-later F tuba now, it is a good Idea to just get it because you might not be able to afford it in five years. Or even next year.

[bloke]

People studying the tuba at colleges and universities are strongly encouraged (and required) to play solos, because - prior to that time - they mostly just played bass parts to band pieces, and this is a way to learn how to phrase and to garner more technical facility...
... but - as such a high percentage of tuba solos are apparently written for bass tuba (with such a low percentage written for contrabass tuba), I wonder how many college students could easily get through their requirements by ONLY owning a contrabass tuba, and also wonder how many of them (that either change majors, drop out, or become band directors - with the tuba thing sort of being left behind) end up selling their F tubas not too long after they graduate.

I didn't buy mine until five years after I finished a bachelor's degree, and - sort of backwards of just about everybody I suppose - after a few years, ended up with no contrabass tubas and played everything on the F instrument... which (I suppose?) is why it's less of a "and I also have" type of instrument for me than it is for some others (even though these days it's being played less than in the past)...

I know this seems like a bunch of sidebar prattling, but there's no real demand for tuba solo recitals in the outside world, and such a large percentage of American orchestral players tend to gravitate towards their contrabass instrument when playing mid to late 18th century parts that are clearly labeled "BASS tuba", that I tend to wonder what function F tubas have in America other than being "college tubas".

I'm opening myself up for criticism, but I think it's a pretty valid question...

(Us older folks who had to look towards bass trombone solo works and such..which basically embrace the same tessatura as F tuba solos... okay, along with the RVW - got through them with small contrabass tubas, which is why there are so many old model 184 tubas out there.)

[russiantuba]

Most of them “F-in’” tubas play too sharp. Like a whole step too sharp. Except for the one I own now. My teacher picked it out specifically for me after playing and owning and selling several F tubas over a number years. His opinion is really important to me. It’s actually the only that matters.

“Autodidact.”

They Symphonie was wonderful with intonation, but she was tweaked over the years. The PT-15 was okay. I tried a Gronitz that you could have shaved with! Sharp on every single note, sounded good for a piston F, but yikes!

I’m pretty sure my Gronitz is tuned to A=442

I would rather a horn be sharp than flat, but that is just me.

[gocsick]

Isn't that the saying, often misappropriated to Heifitz, "I would much rather be sharp than out of tune."

There is some cool physics of pitch perception about why humans more readily notice notes that are slightly flat over notes that are slightly sharp. There are have been some historically great violinsts well known for their "expressive intonation" and intentionally playing slightly sharp at points to sound brighter (of course some people say they just had bad pitch especially in old recordings).. Thibaud, Spivakovsky, Enescu come to mind.

[Matt Good]

[/quote]What would I buy now? I would absolutely buy a Yamaha 822 F, but that is because I had such a wonderful experience with that horn.[/quote]


I have a YFB822 F and it's kind of like a cordless drill for me. It's handy, I can use it in a lot of different situations but it's not as good as my corded drill.

[bloke]

I use the F tuba (in orchestral situations - and mine isn't a fake-contrabass type of F tuba) when...

- the part specifies BASS tuba...(and yes: The last time I played Mahler 1, I used it for all movements.)
- when I need to cut through (such as Saint-Saen's "Organ Symphony" whereby the tuba needs to sound DIFFERENT from the bass-range organ pipes (and - no: no one needs to tell me that it's originally a "French tuba" part)
- When I need to play high pre-tuba parts in a particularly loud-ass orchestra (whereby - otherwise - I'd probably bring my wide-ass bell compensating euphonium with my Elliott huge-ass contrabass trombone mouthpiece)

Whereby @Matt Good has a second F tuba for "special purposes" I suspect (??) that I would pull out this 32"-tall/19" bell/.689" bore "screamin' mee-mee" (fairly BRIGHT-sounding, which cranked) BB-flat tuba for similar "special purposes...(but I can't be certain...Matt and I haven't chatted, lately).

[russiantuba]

Isn't that the saying, often misappropriated to Heifitz, "I would much rather be sharp than out of tune."

There is some cool physics of pitch perception about why humans more readily notice notes that are slightly flat over notes that are slightly sharp. There are have been some historically great violinsts well known for their "expressive intonation" and intentionally playing slightly sharp at points to sound brighter (of course some people say they just had bad pitch especially in old recordings).. Thibaud, Spivakovsky, Enescu come to mind.

Orchestral pitch used to be in the low 420s to the A, and eventually raised to 435hz, now to 442 in many European orchestras. I think the ear wishes to hear things brighter and sharper as time goes on. Even a lot of pop songs use a “gear shift modulation” to bring the final chorus/strand in a higher key to change the monotony. I suspect pitch will continue to rise during my life.

I remember reading something about the reconsideration of key signatures in modern editions of pieces to accommodate for pitch variances (particularly in renaissance pieces).

[tokuno]

I used it with the Vine City Six in Hammondsport, NY when I was subbing for my professor, circa 2000. It was plenty big for these types of gigs, even an outdoor gazebo.

Loved your work in Spiderman

[tubanh84]

Literally every F should be on your radar. My strong suggestion is to wait until college and borrow a school horn to learn F on. It's such a different instrument to play than a CC or BBb that even if you test them, you won't have an informed opinion on how the horns suit you.

Having said that, when I was a HS senior, I tooted on a MW 182 at a conference for a few minutes and fell in love. I didn't have money to buy it at the time. So I didn't. I went to college and started F my sophomore year. I used a B&S PT10 for 2.5 years. Great horn. No complaints. Then a 182 came up for sale my senior year, and I jumped on it. Still loved it. That was 20 years ago, and I still have that horn, and it's been my only F for those 20 years. I have gotten literally nothing but great comments about it, including from some very opinionated professionals, and especially in the context of Berlioz and Petrouchka.

I don't think you can get a better F tuba if your goal is to play it as a smaller horn for smaller settings and solos. If you want an F to be a pseudo-CC tuba with a better high range, just get a CC tuba with a better high range. If you want an F tuba to be your main horn, look to a bigger horn or just go the British route and get an Eb. But for my purposes, I love the 182 and haven't found anything that works better for me given how I use my F tuba.

[Tubeast]

If you want to and are interested in information better honed to your needs, you might want to share your motivation to own an F-Tuba and the use-cases you have in mind for it.

While you don´t really NEED an F at the beginning of a serious musical journey, I can totally understand the urge to own one (Been there, done that).
Way back when in 1992, I even took a loan from my siblings to finance that first self-bought horn.
While that was an interest-free financial aid, I made sure I paid back that money within a year-and-a-half.

So in case six to ten grand for a used, professional-grade basstuba in perfect technical condition are burning a hole in your pocket: GO FOR IT!
If you´re VERY lucky and don´t mind scratches, dents and worn lacquer, you might find cheaper ones.
But thoroughly play-test, and try not to compromise on the mechanical side of things, especially with rotary horns.
Worn-out mechanics WILL hold you back, as will cheap manufacturing.

Don´t worry too much about "dreaded low-C" on rotary F-tubas.
That occurred to me on above-mentioned horn, a Meinl-Weston 46, and took about two weeks of practice as an autodidact to overcome.
I believe the secret is to learn to offer a combination of "right" airflow and "correct" buzz frequency. Whatever and wherever those are.

As mentioned by well informed posters before me, think about the use cases YOU might have for that horn as you define the characteristics you shop for. M-W "Kodiak" and other huge-o-phones are designed with the largest orchestras in mind, that still don´t want to invest in TWO tuba players. You can solo on those, too, but orchestral work is more fun on a large CC and solo work is more fun on a smaller F.