B&S F tuba Identificaion...

[greenbean]

Tuba hive mind,

I acquired this B&S recently on the assumption that it's a 3099 / PT-10, but I really don't know.

What do you think?...............

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9rzKEEBUpWa2JbVTA

[Matt Good]

I'm not an expert but it looks to me as if it is a Perantucci Large Bore F tuba that was made after German reunification in 1990. Later, these were known as a PT-10 tuba or a 3099. Bob Tucci could tell you more information.

[jtm]

Looks like mine, about which I'm also unsure of the model.

How many different sizes of tuning slides are there? And is the first one 17mm, or larger?

[bloke]

I'm glad Matt said that, because that's what I was thinking.

[Matt Good]

@bloke

This tuba looks exactly like my old Perantucci Large Bore F that I purchased in 1984. That OEM linkage I had replaced with Dubro adjustable nylon sockets that lasted much longer than the original.

It was my main F tuba until 2001. I have lots of great memories playing that horn.

[arpthark]

“Made in Germany” is interesting. Pre-PTs of that era that I’ve played have usually said “made in GDR” and typically had the removable lead pipe.

edit: I see Matt Good addressed this above, sorry.

[bloke]

Looks like mine, about which I'm also unsure of the model.

How many different sizes of tuning slides are there? And is the first one 17mm, or larger?

If it's the model we all suspect it is the rotor bores are 19-19-19-20-21.

Arguably, this monkeying around with the B&S "Symphonie" model - larger mouthpipe, larger 5th valve bore, and larger 1st valve bore (later, the bell throat diameter as well, which became the 5099) was some of the first of the transformation of F tubas from their own identity/genre to (per 1930's American E-flat tubas) "Monster" F tubas - which is the type of F tuba that most purchase today...

ie. an instrument pitched in F which is stretched to it's limits - size-wise - in order to become a substitute contrabass tuba (producing sort of a contrabass sound, though foggy), rather than a distinct F (or E-flat) tuba resonance.

There actually was a prior foray off into this direction. It was a "pregnant"-looking B&S F tuba called "Mel Culbertson"...very wonky scale (ie. much like many of the overgrown F tubas offered to consumers today).

Mel Culbertson B&S F tuba: (aka "How big can we make it?")

[jtm]

If it's the model we all suspect it is the rotor bores are 19-19-19-20-21.

Arguably, this monkeying around with the B&S "Symphonie" model - larger mouthpipe, larger 5th valve bore, and larger 1st valve bore (later, the bell throat diameter as well, which became the 5099) was some of the first of the transformation of F tubas from their own identity/genre to (per 1930's American E-flat tubas) "Monster" F tubas - which is the type of F tuba that most purchase today....

Thanks for the perspective. My entertainment budget for F tubas was low enough to keep me from buying a recent one, so I settled for one with 17-18-19-20-21mm rotor bores.

[bloke]

If it's the model we all suspect it is the rotor bores are 19-19-19-20-21.

Arguably, this monkeying around with the B&S "Symphonie" model - larger mouthpipe, larger 5th valve bore, and larger 1st valve bore (later, the bell throat diameter as well, which became the 5099) was some of the first of the transformation of F tubas from their own identity/genre to (per 1930's American E-flat tubas) "Monster" F tubas - which is the type of F tuba that most purchase today....

Thanks for the perspective. My entertainment budget for F tubas was low enough to keep me from buying a recent one, so I settled for one with 17-18-19-20-21mm rotor bores.

no way would I own anything other than what you own at any price.

[greenbean]

Bores are 18-19-20-21-17mm.

[arpthark]

Bores are 18-19-20-21-17mm.

Basically a 3099/2 (PT-8), then.

[JC2]

It’s interesting comparing the old symphonie to the large bore models offered today.

I used to own a 6 valve symphony and work currently has a nice PT-12.

The symphonie has a beautiful sweet sound, but not without some drawbacks. It’s definitely needs a careful approach to have an even sound throughout the range and I also feel the intonation isn’t a complete walk in the park or at least mine wasn’t. I think the sound also doesn’t match that well with modern large bore trombones. With the smaller bore I feel a lot more resistance compared to more recent models. That tightness for me gets quite annoying after a while.

The PT-12 has a bigger sound for me but with less colour than the symphonie. Darker and easier to blend in the bottom of an ensemble. I also feel that it’s easier to play, feeling more open and stable. Intonation is a bit different. The first valve G feels noticeably flatter. The low range is a bit worse on the D and Db but the other notes centre well.

I like both versions for their strengths. I can understand why most F tubas have gone to the larger bore.

[bloke]

Based on greenbean's information, that's a tuba to buy.