Miraphone 191 5th valve?

[dgpretzel]

Folks,

I see that there is a prosteen, gold brass Miraphone 191 5v for sale in my a small town. Something like that doesn't happen very often. It is only 2 or 3 months old. The owner suffered a shoulder injury, and is permanently unable to play it. I haven't physically been in proximity to the horn, nor spoken with the seller, yet.

Thinking of moving on from my St Pete, which I have been happy using for many years.

Might anyone know how the 5th valve on newer 191s are tuned?

[Or, perhaps (like my Yamaha 621 F), it can be changed with an extension for the slide in the 5th valve circuit.]

Thank you for any comments.

Regards,

DG
(Southeast Alaska)

[LeMark]

I've never seen one that wasn't a flat whole step

[dgpretzel]

Thank you, Mark.

Just seems to me that a flat whole step is of great use on my F tuba, because it provides an actual fingering for the notes between the (fundamental) F 4 ledger lines below the staff and Bb 2 ledger lines and a space below the staff. That is, it provides actual fingering for notes that would be the "false/priviledged tones" if there were no 5th valve. Now, on the F horn, those are notes that are played much more frequently than the privileged notes on a BBb horn.

So, you can play those same notes on a BBb horn without a 5th valve.

Decades ago, wasn't it common for 5th valves to be a proper major third, so as to achieve better intonation for the 2-3 combination?

Wouldn't it still be useful today, to use the 5th valve for a better tuned 2-3 combination, than to have it be a flat whole step, which is mainly useful for the notes between pedal Bb (6 ledger lines below the staff) and "priviledged Eb (4 ledger lines and a space below the staff). Those notes are not typically played as frequently as any of the 2-3 combinations.

I could be hopelessly confused, or misunderstanding something very basic, but, in my current state of ignorance, I wonder about the value of a flat whole step 5th valve on a BBb instrument.

I welcome being set straight on this topic.

DG

[LeMark]

I've never liked the long 5th step, and find the long whole step is logical for me, especially if you have access to a top pull slide to help bring down the slightly sharp 12345 combination

[bloke]

I'm certain it's an FF whole tone circuit...

...ie depress 4 to play a low F and depress 5-4 to play low E-flat.

I'm a doofus, but - when I hand-built a 5-valve B-flat (and everyone to whom I explained this plan was a naysayer) - I set of the 5th circuit shorter - as an FF semitone valve (5-4 plays B and low E in tune).

- C tubas feature GG whole tone 5th valves, because low F is so important.
- B-flat tubas can play low F without a fifth valve, so why not address another just-as-serious problem: B/low E intonation (which is way sharp with 2-4 ) ? ...so that's what I did.

Low E-flats are not requested in printed music all that often, but - when they are - the combination 5-2-4 (with my FF semitone 5th circuit) offers a low E-flat (which is sharp, but not nearly as sharp as a 2-4 E natural). With that tuba and that set-up, I typically pull the upper #4 slide out about 3 inches to dial in low E-flat (if written or desired to be played).

I'm pretty picky about tuning so - truth-be-told - I actually play B-natural (with the FF semitone 5th valve) as 5-1-3, whereas low E is 5-4, which centers the needle with both pitches.

You do realize that a St. Petersburg 202 and a Miraphone 191 are extremely similar instruments (OK...other than workmanship), but not-beat-up 202's are put together fairly well, and the build quality of the rotors is also good - actually (to me) reminiscent of pre-unification/pre-Buffet B&S rotors)

I'm thinking a gleaming/used 202 would sell used for $3000 (and - my guess - that would be from the dealer/importer that also sells them new)...so the question (re: the 191) is obviously pricing...and how much more (unless some crazy bargain) you're willing to pay for a very similar instrument to your 202 that's built better here-and-there, along with featuring a 5th rotor.

[Nemo]

I personally use the long whole step 5th for D, Db, and Gb quite frequently on C tuba, as it sits nicer than 4 or 24 on my horn. It also makes some fast runs much easier as my thumb is stronger than my pinky. It's also a great alternate for some notes in the staff and weird trills when you're avoiding partial breaks.

One weird thing I have been doing is playing the opening of Carmina Burana as 4, 45, 1245 for a consistent tone at that dynamic. Not sure why it's better, but it works. I'm glad to have the option.

[jtm]

I'm a doofus, but - when I hand-built a 5-valve B-flat (and everyone to whom I explained this plan was a naysayer) - I set of the 5th circuit shorter - as an FF semitone valve (5-4 plays B and low E in tune).

The 5th valve on my B&S 102 (or 103; I don’t know the difference, and it’s not marked) is a long whole step with a left hand key, and it’s great for playing B natural and low E with 5-2-3. That tuba has a few different sizes of valve tubing, like the Symphonie F tubas, but that probably doesn’t make much difference.

… and the build quality of the rotors is also good - actually (to me) reminiscent of pre-unification/pre-Buffet B&S rotors)

In my extremely small sample of two 1980-ish B&S tubas, the rotors and linkages are excellent.

[bloke]

With GG or FF whole tone circuits, the 5-2-3 is typically just a little bit too long (for low E, BB-flat / low F-sharp, C) whereby the other choice is 2-4, which is a good bit too short. OK...LOL...REALLY LOUD low E's or F-sharps with 5-2-3 often end up "right on the money".


Since 4th valve C or D (BB-flat tuba or C tuba) tends to be a bit flat, 2-4 is often not terribly sharp for those pitches, though often still 5c - 10c sharp (depending on what slide position compromises are set up by the player). More often 5-2-3 (typical long whole tone 5th circuit) is pretty saggy for C or D (BB-flat or C instrument).

[dgpretzel]

Thank you all for your comments.

And especially Joe, who also brought into focus the economic consideration.

I have to admit that the shiny object (pristine, gold brass) just leaped out at me. But, when considering my current BBb, which is also a big bore, piggy-like, good-intonation, with valves that have also been good to me... well, after Joe gave me a "dope-slap" upside the head (hat tip to the "Car Talk" Magliozzi Bros), I have to question the value in paying almost $9K (current owner is asking $11,900, and I have a current 202N (also shiny) horn in good condition) for a 5th valve. Admittedly there would be some tonal differences, and mechanical might have some advantage, but I have been careful with the instrument, and not had any issues or damage (well, except for a small dent the size of a nickel [nickel dent in a nickel horn, eh?] where's a rim shot when you need one).

Regards,

DG

[MN_TimTuba]

The gold brass 191 I owned did have a factory 5th valve tuned to a flat whole step, and I did find it useful on those low, low notes. It also had a factory 2nd valve kicker, which I found mostly dubious since the horn had such beautiful intonation. Then again, my aging ears can't hear grass grow at 100 yards anymore, so what do I know? Anyhow, in retrospect I think foregoing the 5th valve, dropping the 2nd valve kicker, and having a first valve kicker installed would have given me the same low range intonation while making the horn a couple of pounds lighter. Not that it was a beast, but shedding a couple of pounds is generally a good thing, right?
Tim