New Tuba Day

[je]

This week I bought my first CC tuba. Last year I started playing an EEb tuba (Yamaha 632SII), fell in love with its "singing" voice, and decided to start taking tuba more seriously. But I don't love playing my BBb tuba (King 2341) even though there's nothing "wrong" with it. It tends toward sounding gravelly, and its sound when played softly has never inspired me. Maybe a different BBb tuba would be wonderful, but I decided to take the leap into CC tubas in pursuit of a clearer "singing" voice akin to what my EEb tuba enables. And this CC tuba is one that I actually want to play.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KDunaYvifN4TrQnK9

It's a Willson 3060-FA5 "Merlin", a demo instrument with a few hard miles on it (some minor dents and scratches, plus a minor bell crease). I wouldn't be surprised if several of you have played this exact instrument. And thank you for that -- your scattered comments were enough to nudge me in the right direction. I was looking for a 4/4 or 5/4 instrument with clean tone and good enough intonation to avoid slide calisthenics. This instrument delivers.

The only note that poses any intonation challenge is the A at the bottom of the staff; 12 is quite sharp, but 3 works well. Its useful dynamic range is exceptional. It plays cleanly at very low volumes, and I haven't yet managed to overblow it; lip discomfort kicks in first. As an aside, since there's a dearth of information about this model I should mention that the first valve is vented. (I chuckle every time I see the 20,mm - 0.807” 5th valve bore spec blindly copied from https://www.willson.ch/en/content/news/c-tuba-merlin ; it's ostensibly 20.5mm.)

As for tone, to my ears it sings, but a bit less than my EEb tuba. While playing the CC tuba my perception is that it is brighter, but my son begged to differ, so I had him play some scales on both so I could listen. He's right that the CC tuba is actually darker (foggy in his terminology). I suspect my differing perception while playing has to do with where my ears are relative to the bells (EEb/CC: right /left, further/closer).

Of the 5 mouthpieces I've tried with this tuba so far, all worked reasonably well, but the Denis Wick 2.5CC is the clear winner so far. I'll keep experimenting. (I love my Sellmansberger Imperial on the EEb, but still haven't managed to purchase Orchestra Grand, Symphony, nor Euro shank from Houser.)

I was optimistic regarding water removal, based on pictures that show four water keys in the obvious places. And indeed, water removal is reasonable. No rotations are necessary, though water does accumulate in low spots just below the valves. But it's easy to drain those catches down to the water keys by pressing the valves down and rocking the instrument to my right. Draining the fifth valve loop looks to be a bigger project, but so far I haven't had to deal with that. In summary, far better than the King 2341, not quite as easy as the Yamaha 632SII.

There are a couple things I don't love about this tuba. The valves work very well, but holy cow are the piston springs strong! Today during practice I didn't notice it as much, but the first two days I felt nontrivial finger fatigue, which should be something only double bass players worry about. I have to wonder how that will affect fast technical playing once I adjust.

And now let's talk about cases. This tuba came with a gig bag that is way too big, likely a random bag that was "big enough". This is the first brass instrument I've ever owned that lacked a hard case, and I'm not happy about it. My BBb (King) has a monstrously large case (Gator?), bulky enough that I could understand using a gig bag as the lesser evil. But my EEb (Yamaha) is actually heavier than the CC, yet the case is well designed and quite practical. A practical hard case seems eminently possible, but no such case exists. I gave serious thought this week to learning the nuances of carbon fiber case construction (already have the CAD/CNC capabilities for mold making and a vacuum press setup), but instead decided to get a Cronkhite gig bag order going. If this tuba weren't already dinged up it would have been really hard to accept the likelihood of dents during routine transport.

Anyway, I think it's time to find a new home for my BBb, because I don't expect to play it anymore. Will this be my first and last CC? Hard to say; it feels like we're in a new era that enables precise, principled computer-model-based design rather than semi-blind iterative refinement. The Willson 3060-FA5 is really good, but perhaps the Eastman EBC834
(https://www.tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=10728) will be even better. And then a tuba yet better may come along. That said, to the extent that I hit limits playing tuba, I expect to be the weak link rather than this tuba.

[MiBrassFS]

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[Sousaswag]

I LOVED the Merlin I played recently. I think you made an excellent choice. Congratulations!

Was this the one at Buddy Roger’s? That’s the one I played.

[je]

Was this the one at Buddy Roger’s? That’s the one I played.

No, this one just came through The Mighty Quinn. I learned while talking with Chris Hite at Buddy Roger's about gig bags that the one you played was used at the NAMM show, so I'm not sure what mine was used for.

[Sousaswag]

A note about the valve springs:

In all my Willson tubas, the springs are too heavy. You could get a set of Yamaha springs that will considerably lighten up the action. They’re like $20 on Amazon.

Sounds like you got a GREAT instrument. The case thing, since it’s a relatively new model, Cronkhite is probably the best choice. Just be mindful of it when you’re walking around with it, and you should be fine.

I found the Laskey 30H to be a good match with the Merlin too. I’d bet the Sellmansberger Symphony would be as well.

[je]

A couple updates, with more to come sometime later (still waiting on a Cronkhite bag, and Houser Mouthpieces still isn't taking shank orders.)

Yamaha springs totally solved the piston stiffness. I also ordered some Mead springs, but honestly haven't tried them since the current ones work great.

I acquired a Laskey 30H mouthpiece (took awhile), and it has gradually won out over the Denis Wick 2.5CC. The 30H has slightly fuller resonance, though I slightly prefer the rim of the 2.5CC.

As for the tuba itself, it is working very well overall. Before purchase I noted that the first space A is sharp, and have since determined that the second line Bb is also significantly sharp, though not as much as the A. So I've started moving the first slide for those notes in some cases, mixed in with the alternate A fingering (3) and just lipping. Slide adjustment isn't as mentally taxing as I'd feared; there's a lot of strategy overlap with trombone slide positions that makes it feel like pretty much the same skill.

But the slide ergonomics aren't great; reaching over the top puts arm weight on my thighs, which don't appreciate the extra pressure. And my shoulder doesn't like spending lots of time extended upward. There isn't quite enough room to reach through the compact wrap. A lever may be in this tuba's future, but I'm going to keep working with the instrument for a while before looking for such solutions.

[tubatodd]

A couple updates, with more to come sometime later (still waiting on a Cronkhite bag, and Houser Mouthpieces still isn't taking shank orders.)

Yamaha springs totally solved the piston stiffness. I also ordered some Mead springs, but honestly haven't tried them since the current ones work great.

When I bought my first Meinl Weston 2165, it came with the stock springs and it was a bear to play. The whole horn was difficult, but that's a different story. I ended up getting the Yamaha springs (I think). They were certainly easier to press, but I found that they were bouncy on the return stroke. If you lay the tuba on your lap, do you see the valves bounce when you depress them?

I now have a Besson 995 with the "big valves" that a lot of companies are using. I've been using the stock springs. I think I've just gotten used to them. I have considered the Mead springs. Please let us all know how they do for you when your set arrives.

[arpthark]

When I bought my first Meinl Weston 2165, it came with the stock springs and it was a bear to play.

Wouldn't that make it a 6450?

Y'know, a Baer...?

I'll show myself out.

[tubatodd]

When I bought my first Meinl Weston 2165, it came with the stock springs and it was a bear to play.

Wouldn't that make it a 6450?

Y'know, a Baer...?

I'll show myself out.

Whocka whocka whocka!!!

[Sousaswag]

I would bet that those pitches settle in as you play the horn more. It’s amazing how much we learn to compensate on our main instrument.

[humBell]

When I bought my first Meinl Weston 2165, it came with the stock springs and it was a bear to play.

Wouldn't that make it a 6450?

Y'know, a Baer...?

I'll show myself out.

Whocka whocka whocka!!!

I get it. Fozzy is a bear, too.

[tubatodd]

I get it. Fozzy is a bear, too.

I see what you did there.

[the elephant]

Yamaha euphonium springs will not work in top-action tubas because - yes - they bounce and sag. However, a front-action tuba has most of the weight on the spring removed when the piston is not being pressed, so no bounce or sag when playing.

These saved my a$$ on the Scherzo movement in Mahler 5. My hand could not make it through repeated run-throughs of this set of excerpts with the stock springs in my valves. I bought the Yamaha springs on eBay and they got here in time for the first rehearsal with the orchestra. It was like night and day, fatigue-wise.

Highly recommended!

[jonesbrass]

Yamaha springs totally solved the piston stiffness. I also ordered some Mead springs, but honestly haven't tried them since the current ones work great.

Yamaha springs were more comfortable in my 3050, too. Quick and light. No bounce.

[je]

Yamaha springs totally solved the piston stiffness. I also ordered some Mead springs, but honestly haven't tried them since the current ones work great.

When I bought my first Meinl Weston 2165, it came with the stock springs and it was a bear to play. The whole horn was difficult, but that's a different story. I ended up getting the Yamaha springs (I think). They were certainly easier to press, but I found that they were bouncy on the return stroke. If you lay the tuba on your lap, do you see the valves bounce when you depress them?

I now have a Besson 995 with the "big valves" that a lot of companies are using. I've been using the stock springs. I think I've just gotten used to them. I have considered the Mead springs. Please let us all know how they do for you when your set arrives.

I finally got a chance to evaluate the Mead springs, and I don't like them in the Willson 3060-FA5 ('Merlin'). The Mead springs (at least for valves 1-3) are a bit stronger than the Yamaha springs, but they're all in the acceptable range (no discernible bounce, and no Herculean effort required). The main problem with the Mead springs is that the 1-3 valve springs are long enough that they creep off-center with use (less than 20 actuations) and rub against the valve casing. It's plastic against metal, so it's not an awful sound, but I certainly hear it and am distracted by it. The shorter 4th valve spring seems to not have this problem; I left it in for a day after swapping the others out, and it worked fine. But in order to have enough 4th valve springs, I'd have to order four sets, rather than "just" the two sets I assumed would be needed to get enough of the 1-3 springs.

Since I have the Mead springs, I decided to try them in my Yamaha YEB-632IIS ('Neo'), which is functionally identical to the Besson tubas these springs are primarily intended for. In this tuba they work well, and within the first couple minutes I didn't notice the slight increase in stiffness. I didn't go as far as taking a slow-motion video, but while swapping springs I did compare valve bounce between the Yamaha and Mead springs (valves 1-3, with the valves in the upright position, of course). There's slight bounce with the Yamaha springs, but none that I could see with the Mead springs. Overall the Mead springs are probably a slight improvement over the stock Yamaha springs.

I'm sticking with Yamaha springs for front-action valves. But I do wish the springs would mate with the pistons or bottom caps in a way that they wouldn't randomly get catawampus when pulling the pistons out far enough to oil them.