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I tried to quote enough so as to not resent repairing them, but not so much as to behave as a typical "let's see if they approve THIS big fat juicy amount" music store.

ie. I have no idea whether these quotes will be approved, but - if they are - maybe I'll post a few pictures.

bloke "but they're just really beat-up 20K's...so not much to see here... "

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OTHER news:

Years ago, I taught Austin Howle (Montreal Symphony tuba-guy, for quite some time), so I'm really good friends with his Dad (Mark - former assistant band director at Ole Miss). Mark (Howle) has an appointment in Oxford (no longer lives in Oxford, MS) next Tuesday, so I'm going to try to rush out some marching baritone and double horn repairs for an Oxford-based school before Tuesday, in order to share a lunch date with Mark and his wife, Debbie...so Mrs. bloke and I are looking forward to that. (We rarely meet anyone to do anything. )

(This was back when they had people who could make the short action valves as perfect cylinders, and make them work nicely in the casings... All the pistons on all three of these instruments work just fine, and the complicated valve caps on all of them screw on and off easily as well. Again, it was back when these factories still had craftsman on their payrolls.)

bloke wrote: Thu Sep 04, 2025 9:38 pm (This was back when they had people who could make the short action valves as perfect cylinders, and make them work nicely in the casings... All the pistons on all three of these instruments work just fine, and the complicated valve caps on all of them screw on and off easily as well. Again, it was back when these factories still had craftsman on their payrolls.)

Question: I have usually played conventional horns with conventional valves. With the offset piston stems and valve caps, how do you take them apart for routine valve oiling?

bloke wrote: Thu Sep 04, 2025 9:38 pm (This was back when they had people who could make the short action valves as perfect cylinders, and make them work nicely in the casings... All the pistons on all three of these instruments work just fine, and the complicated valve caps on all of them screw on and off easily as well. Again, it was back when these factories still had craftsman on their payrolls.)

I am amazed at how good the plating and fit of these Conn valves are. On both the 1960s 20J and similar vintage Conn Director Cornet the valves still look brand new with excellent compression. The rest of the instruments show abuse from different previous owners but the valves and internals of the valve block are absolutely perfect.

iiipopes wrote: Fri Sep 05, 2025 7:55 am

bloke wrote: Thu Sep 04, 2025 9:38 pm (This was back when they had people who could make the short action valves as perfect cylinders, and make them work nicely in the casings... All the pistons on all three of these instruments work just fine, and the complicated valve caps on all of them screw on and off easily as well. Again, it was back when these factories still had craftsman on their payrolls.)

Question: I have usually played conventional horns with conventional valves. With the offset piston stems and valve caps, how do you take them apart for routine valve oiling?

The cap is a four-piece assembly. There's a flat brass disc (along with a part under it featuring a stationary valve alignment vertical stick as well as a valve orientation tooth. This center part does not rotate. The strike riser screws into two center parts - holding them together, and there's an outer ring with female threads which screws down to the casing (again: while the inner part remains stationary). ... I think they're silly, the additional surface friction slows them down enough so as they're no faster than smaller diameter pistons in a race from the top to the bottom of the stroke, and I judge them to be a Rube Goldberg-esque gimmick.

@gocsick
In my experience, Elkhart nickel plated pistons featured very thick nickel plating (trumpets, cornets, baritones as well). Even when the casings and pistons started becoming a little bit leaky, they still look(ed) good.
I've seen some more recent short action sousaphone (and King) pistons with worn through areas.

I have a pretty good start on the WORST (and the WORST HALF) of the three UMI-era 20K sousaphones.

The large end of the second branch as more than 50% flattened, but the small end/half of it wasn't particularly bad.
I cut off the mangled circumferential guard wire from the large half of the 2nd branch and tossed it in the scrap brass.
I'll replace that half of it with a new piece of (pieced-in) guard wire.

The tangential guard wire (which Conn-Selmer has abandoned) really wasn't damaged, but the same portion (large end of the 2nd branch) was mashed into the 2nd branch, so I cut it off, repaired the 2nd branch and will REINSTALL that piece which I temporarily cut away.

The 4th branch wasn't so bad, and neither is the 5th branch nor the lower mouthpipe tube.

I'll be un-soldering a few of the slide bows and removing deep dents from a few of those, but not many.

As is known, the UMI lacquer (when heated) turned VERY dark and flaked off. I'll be stripping those areas with oven cleaner buffing, and piecing in SUPER tinted gold lacquer, it will take a BUNCH of tint, but I can mix lacquer that is as deeply tinted as the original lacquer.

again...
Check out the tangential/outside area of the big 2nd branch. That's were the worst damage (of this and of all three of these sousaphones) had occurred.

I haven't used the Ferree's dent machine on this. It's just working out better - so far - to use old methods.

It looks pretty terrible with a combination of old "ok" gold lacquer, darkened gold lacquer, burned gold lacquer, and no lacquer, but - once it's stripped (in only spots), buffed (again: in spots) shined up (spots), and heavily-tinting (matching) gold lacquer is shot over the needed places - it will look pretty darn nice...and/but yeah...You can see - if you look - were this 2nd branch was polished by concrete sidewalks.

For now, you'll just have to take my word for it (as the colors distract) that it is smooth and round.










The handed me some Chinese necks which SORT OF look like Conn, but not exactly, and don't quite fit. Since new Conn necks are crazy expensive, I'll be altering those Chinese necks to fit these 20K sousaphones.

I picked over little details in the part that you see in the previous post late tonight and then I roughed out the body elbow, first branch, did a complete dent removal job on the third branch (basically the other half of the body), and quit at 11:15.
Truth be told, I didn't go back out there until about 10:15.

again...
I got an hour head start on this half of the sousaphone last night, and (though a late start today), it took only another hour to get these pieces just about done. (I may barely pick back over them later...)

I used a combination of magnet techniques, the Ferree's dent machine (with an odd attachment that - perhaps - most down own, which helped me get a bit closer to the two not-removed ribs), and burnishing (with a large smoothing ball/shoe on both a curved 3/4" rod and a straight 3/4" rod. Part of the time, I had Mrs. bloke take the weight off the back end - so that I could use both of my own hands for the burnishing. Truth be told, I also used a larger-sized dent hammer (to correct what magnets tend to do when running up next to large ferrules).

I'm probably going to cut the lacquer off the top two quadrants of this first branch (just as with other darkened, burned, and dent-distressed areas) and shoot those quadrants (again) with VERY heavily-tinted "gold" lacquer. This UMI-era "King" lacquer SSSSUUUCCCKKKSSS.







There's really not all that much more to do (other than less than an hour total of PRE-buffing (removing bad lacquer from defined areas) before soldering this body back together...but it's time to get cleaned up, head into the danger zone, play polkas for dough with some tuba and baritone guys, and then pick up some instruments for repairs.


again: I'm doing the WORST one FIRST:

Tomorrow is a funeral to attend and Mrs bloke has an online zoom meeting tomorrow evening, but I still might get this worst first one of the three sousaphones done and maybe I'll even shoot some super heavily tinted gold lacquer on all of the burned and ugly places...

I usually have Mrs. bloke help hold things in position while tacking them together. (It's really helpful to have a second person to line the sections up just right and to avoid the risk of having part of it fall on the floor. In this instance, I'm slowing her down from completing a bassoon repair for one of you.)

I cut (the commercial mower) down another sector of the property today (from about 3 feet high weeds down to a 3-inch lawn), but - since I was covered with dust and grass clippings - I went ahead and engaged in another filthy job: buffing all the ugly places on the different portions of the sousaphone prior to putting it all back together. I was going to strip those areas by spraying oven cleaner on them, but I just went ahead and buffed the burned or worn UMI gold lacquer off in those areas, even though it's very stubborn.

Although these are difficult and nasty jobs, I'm charging pretty good money to do these three instruments, and I'm pushing hard to have them done before October 24th, because the school that owns them is only about a half hour (driving) away from where I'll be rehearsing and performing "Pictures" (Mussorsky/Ravel) on the 24th/25th, and combining trips - of course - saves time and fuel. (They want them in time for a Christmas parade. Again, as big as these things are they actually belong to a MIDDLE school band. (I'm going to suggest that they bring the Jupiters over to the middle school and take these 20K's over to the high school, but that's ultimately their business.)

If I manage to get the thing done - and the lacquer dries quickly, I'll take a couple of reveal pictures. Even if I get the body all back together, spot polished and spot lacquered, the bell still needs to be smoothed out. Being a 20K - and not a King, that might (??) take more than an hour.

... The same weekend that I'm playing "Pictures", my niece is getting married in Memphis - though she lives in another state (big wedding... I hooked her up with my friend's big band, because she is a ballroom dancer, and wanted one for the wedding.) I'll have to miss it. My daughter and my son-in-law (the horn player in Pittsburgh) are flying in. I'll be able to visit with them just a little bit, but not very much (probably Sunday morning will be about it). I'm pretty sure they're staying out here at blokeplace.

Somehow, I'm going to have to get three 20K sousaphones (no cases, wrapped in blankets and quilts), Fat Bastard (hard case) and one of the euphoniums in a Toyota Matrix. I may have to give up and use the work van, but I hope not. If I can get rid of the sousaphones on the front end, everything will be okay.

Other than a badly-needed valve section chem-clean, I'm pretty sure I'll have this #1 (and worst) of the three 20K sousaphones back together (and possibly have the finish touched up) tomorrow. The bell needs ironing out, and the Chinese not-quite-compatible neck needs to be altered, but (other than sticking everything back together - with Mrs. bloke's help) that's about it.

We had to attend a funeral in Memphis (and do pick-ups at three schools in the Memphis area...oh yeah: one of them is a NEW account - seemingly with unlimited repair funds ), but - before I had to stop, get cleaned up and change clothes - I got the "half ribs" reinstalled (not cleaned up nor polished) on the formerly-smashed 2nd branch.

Pictures aren't complimentary, but y'all are accustomed to seeing stuff all cleaned up and polished.

The tangential (original reinstalled) piece of a rib is back on (after un-smushing the SIDE of the 2nd branch) and the circumferential (new) piece of a rim is installed as well.

Before leaving for the funeral, I also
- re-soldered a small 4th branch brace
- removed, repaired (badly damaged) and reinstalled the #1 circuit upper return bow...It was not damaged on the legs, but had three deep karate chops along the span...so I annealed the middle area of the bow only, pushed those dents up with a curved tool, and then burnished with a stacked magnet.

Here's the reinstalled piece of the 2nd branch tangential rib (to the right...and they no longer put this on the 20K sousaphones).



This is the (new: original was mangled) spliced-in piece of the circumferential rib.




I wonder how long until these three 20K's are as torn-up as they were before...The pistons are in great condition on all three...I removed just about >no< material from any of the formerly-smashed branches, and yes, I left all the ugly marks in them, but they are straight/smooth, and will be polished/lacquered where the lacquer was either distressed from abuse or from un-soldering/re-soldering.

I did a few hours of work out on the property again today - once again treating the commercial mower as if it's a bush hog. My son has been using the van and the trailer to trailer off huge trailer loads of thatch to one of the ravines and dumping it in. I also took a hard-tined rake (and actually a shovel - for a few of the dead weeds huge roots - to some former flower beds to try make them look like they could be flower beds again (after hitting them with glysophate a couple of weeks ago - having avoided spraying the formerly-overgrown plants... and then there's the constant fight against the fire ants with acephate...). It sort of wore me out, as it was back up in the '90s and sunny. It was also breezy, so I was having to stop often and clean off the radiator on the commercial mower to avoid overheating the engine.
I had to break it off and did some more billing and answering emails (while still sweaty and filthy, because I knew I would eventually go out to the shop and do buffing on this sousaphone, so why bathe before doing that?)

...so I just now went out and spent about an hour - or maybe a bit more - getting this #1-of-3 20K absolutely ready to solder together tomorrow. (This included some solder cleanup, some soldering around the #1 circuit upper return bow, and buffing some areas that are much easier to buff with the thing in pieces vs. all stuck together.)
It's now midnight. It's time for a shower... and maybe I'll go back and look and see if there's anything I can eat and call it "supper".

We got it stuck together, this morning, but (as expected) the now-repaired previously-super-smasho-ed 6/4-size 2nd branch's curvature was slightly altered...but (yeah) we teased it back together, and it doesn't look weird, and all the solder joints line up with oem marks.

It's not ready to polish...a couple of branch-to-branch (large flange / non-adjustable) braces need to be lined up and soldered in place.

It's gonna be good.

I'm going to squeeze in another school's pile of instruments, and then dig in to 20K #2.

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MiBrassFS wrote: Thu Oct 02, 2025 11:02 am I curious to see the lacquer touch up…

We're trying to get it all finally stuck together, but my torch is messing up. Just in case, I'm filling up a different propane thing to see if that's the issue, but - in the meantime - I did a quickie smooth up and clean up job on that dented up King sousaphone bell that I need to drop off north of here on the way to playing a festival at Reelfoot Lake on Saturday. (review: Reelfoot Lake is in the extreme northwest corner of Tennessee, and was formed around 1813 due to an epic earthquake on the New Madrid fault. It's a large - 23 square miles - fairly shallow lake - formed originally by Mississippi River water dumping into it when the river flowed backwards due to the earthquake - which has never dried up, attracts ducks, thus attracts bald eagles, and - for many decades - has attracted tourists. The nearby town, Tiptonville, isn't much of a town, and there really aren't many ways out of that area other than "the way you came". That having been said, I found a secret passage to get up there that avoids all the tourist traffic for the festival (including about 15 miles of yard sales which are prompted by the festival). If you find it and zoom in to the Dyersburg Mississippi River bridge, notice the tiny little highway that runs right along the edge of the Mississippi River north from the interstate 155 bridge across the Mississippi River at Dyersburg. I even verified with the highway patrol up there that it won't have much traffic on it even on that Saturday.)

If you remember the formerly-smushed King silver sousaphone that I recently straightened out (yet was paired up with a silver Jupiter bell which actually belonged with a Jupiter fiberglass body), this is the CORRECT genuine King bell for that sousaphone (which - yup - was incorrectly paired up with the Jupiter fiberglass...as well as - duh - also was formerly all smushed up...I picked it up for repair when I delivered the repaired King sousaphone).





so I'll do a "reveal" post after I've shot the gold-tinted on the (for now) bare areas of the 20K, but probably will not shoot "reveal" pics of the of the subsequent two.

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MiBrassFS wrote: Thu Oct 02, 2025 1:27 pm What I’m curious about is the blending between old gold and new gold lacquers. How dark will the overlap areas be? Overspraying can be tricky…

Does that make sense?

yes, but I'm not trying to fool anyone...I'm just trying to do a really major repair.

I might use some 2" frog tape to mask around the edges, or I might just free-style...
Otherwise, I can (again) free-style, and use a lacquer-thinner-soaked paper towel, spray as accurately as possible, and wipe away along the edges.

All of those sound terrible, but I suspect "less than terrible" will occur.

I can get Mrs. bloke to hold the sousaphone body still (hanging from a piece of house wire for spraying) if I decide to wipe off overspray.

btw...It was my torch nozzle itself.
A replacement is on the way.

I had to use a "home plumbing" torch and propane bottle to finish putting it together...painful, but it's done...but the distressed areas are not yet buffed out.

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No shade cast. It’s a tough task. Always looking for tips…

I'd love to have someone who would mentor me.

Mostly I learn by, "oops, I guess I'm not ever going to try that again".

At my age, though, pretty soon I'm going to be repairing the same instrument all the time.

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(Waiting for my new torch to arrive) polishing this thing up and shooting lacquer on all those areas is sort of the default thing I have that I can get done today, other than inspecting and writing up a repair quote for a stack of professional grade trombones that the trombone-playing chairman of a music department pulled out of the college's fleet (to save from marching band fate)....

... and as little as I enjoy polishing sousaphones, at least the temperature this morning is in the 70s, and I really don't like writing up repair quotes.

Other than that, I've got packing up and shipping mouthpieces to do (mundane, but better than either of the above), weed eating below the pasture fence and more chopping more of this property down from an epic super-high overgrown series of neglected pastures back down to a series of lawns (constantly being careful to not overload nor overheat this large commercial mower, which can be used as a bush hog, but only slowly and carefully).

All of this rhetoric above...
Maybe I'll have sousaphone #1 done by lunch time. Who knows? Maybe even the bell.