TubaForum.net

Folks,

I see that there is a prosteen, gold brass Miraphone 191 5v for sale in my a small town. Something like that doesn't happen very often. It is only 2 or 3 months old. The owner suffered a shoulder injury, and is permanently unable to play it. I haven't physically been in proximity to the horn, nor spoken with the seller, yet.

Thinking of moving on from my St Pete, which I have been happy using for many years.

Might anyone know how the 5th valve on newer 191s are tuned?

[Or, perhaps (like my Yamaha 621 F), it can be changed with an extension for the slide in the 5th valve circuit.]

Thank you for any comments.

Regards,

DG
(Southeast Alaska)

I've never seen one that wasn't a flat whole step

Thank you, Mark.

Just seems to me that a flat whole step is of great use on my F tuba, because it provides an actual fingering for the notes between the (fundamental) F 4 ledger lines below the staff and Bb 2 ledger lines and a space below the staff. That is, it provides actual fingering for notes that would be the "false/priviledged tones" if there were no 5th valve. Now, on the F horn, those are notes that are played much more frequently than the privileged notes on a BBb horn.

So, you can play those same notes on a BBb horn without a 5th valve.

Decades ago, wasn't it common for 5th valves to be a proper major third, so as to achieve better intonation for the 2-3 combination?

Wouldn't it still be useful today, to use the 5th valve for a better tuned 2-3 combination, than to have it be a flat whole step, which is mainly useful for the notes between pedal Bb (6 ledger lines below the staff) and "priviledged Eb (4 ledger lines and a space below the staff). Those notes are not typically played as frequently as any of the 2-3 combinations.

I could be hopelessly confused, or misunderstanding something very basic, but, in my current state of ignorance, I wonder about the value of a flat whole step 5th valve on a BBb instrument.

I welcome being set straight on this topic.

DG

I've never liked the long 5th step, and find the long whole step is logical for me, especially if you have access to a top pull slide to help bring down the slightly sharp 12345 combination

I'm certain it's an FF whole tone circuit...

...ie depress 4 to play a low F and depress 5-4 to play low E-flat.

I'm a doofus, but - when I hand-built a 5-valve B-flat (and everyone to whom I explained this plan was a naysayer) - I set of the 5th circuit shorter - as an FF semitone valve (5-4 plays B and low E in tune).

- C tubas feature GG whole tone 5th valves, because low F is so important.
- B-flat tubas can play low F without a fifth valve, so why not address another just-as-serious problem: B/low E intonation (which is way sharp with 2-4 ) ? ...so that's what I did.

Low E-flats are not requested in printed music all that often, but - when they are - the combination 5-2-4 (with my FF semitone 5th circuit) offers a low E-flat (which is sharp, but not nearly as sharp as a 2-4 E natural). With that tuba and that set-up, I typically pull the upper #4 slide out about 3 inches to dial in low E-flat (if written or desired to be played).

I'm pretty picky about tuning so - truth-be-told - I actually play B-natural (with the FF semitone 5th valve) as 5-1-3, whereas low E is 5-4, which centers the needle with both pitches.

You do realize that a St. Petersburg 202 and a Miraphone 191 are extremely similar instruments (OK...other than workmanship), but not-beat-up 202's are put together fairly well, and the build quality of the rotors is also good - actually (to me) reminiscent of pre-unification/pre-Buffet B&S rotors)

I'm thinking a gleaming/used 202 would sell used for $3000 (and - my guess - that would be from the dealer/importer that also sells them new)...so the question (re: the 191) is obviously pricing...and how much more (unless some crazy bargain) you're willing to pay for a very similar instrument to your 202 that's built better here-and-there, along with featuring a 5th rotor.

I personally use the long whole step 5th for D, Db, and Gb quite frequently on C tuba, as it sits nicer than 4 or 24 on my horn. It also makes some fast runs much easier as my thumb is stronger than my pinky. It's also a great alternate for some notes in the staff and weird trills when you're avoiding partial breaks.

One weird thing I have been doing is playing the opening of Carmina Burana as 4, 45, 1245 for a consistent tone at that dynamic. Not sure why it's better, but it works. I'm glad to have the option.

bloke wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 6:19 pm I'm a doofus, but - when I hand-built a 5-valve B-flat (and everyone to whom I explained this plan was a naysayer) - I set of the 5th circuit shorter - as an FF semitone valve (5-4 plays B and low E in tune).

The 5th valve on my B&S 102 (or 103; I don’t know the difference, and it’s not marked) is a long whole step with a left hand key, and it’s great for playing B natural and low E with 5-2-3. That tuba has a few different sizes of valve tubing, like the Symphonie F tubas, but that probably doesn’t make much difference.

bloke wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 6:19 pm … and the build quality of the rotors is also good - actually (to me) reminiscent of pre-unification/pre-Buffet B&S rotors)

In my extremely small sample of two 1980-ish B&S tubas, the rotors and linkages are excellent.

With GG or FF whole tone circuits, the 5-2-3 is typically just a little bit too long (for low E, BB-flat / low F-sharp, C) whereby the other choice is 2-4, which is a good bit too short. OK...LOL...REALLY LOUD low E's or F-sharps with 5-2-3 often end up "right on the money".


Since 4th valve C or D (BB-flat tuba or C tuba) tends to be a bit flat, 2-4 is often not terribly sharp for those pitches, though often still 5c - 10c sharp (depending on what slide position compromises are set up by the player). More often 5-2-3 (typical long whole tone 5th circuit) is pretty saggy for C or D (BB-flat or C instrument).

Thank you all for your comments.

And especially Joe, who also brought into focus the economic consideration.

I have to admit that the shiny object (pristine, gold brass) just leaped out at me. But, when considering my current BBb, which is also a big bore, piggy-like, good-intonation, with valves that have also been good to me... well, after Joe gave me a "dope-slap" upside the head (hat tip to the "Car Talk" Magliozzi Bros), I have to question the value in paying almost $9K (current owner is asking $11,900, and I have a current 202N (also shiny) horn in good condition) for a 5th valve. Admittedly there would be some tonal differences, and mechanical might have some advantage, but I have been careful with the instrument, and not had any issues or damage (well, except for a small dent the size of a nickel [nickel dent in a nickel horn, eh?] where's a rim shot when you need one).

Regards,

DG

The gold brass 191 I owned did have a factory 5th valve tuned to a flat whole step, and I did find it useful on those low, low notes. It also had a factory 2nd valve kicker, which I found mostly dubious since the horn had such beautiful intonation. Then again, my aging ears can't hear grass grow at 100 yards anymore, so what do I know? Anyhow, in retrospect I think foregoing the 5th valve, dropping the 2nd valve kicker, and having a first valve kicker installed would have given me the same low range intonation while making the horn a couple of pounds lighter. Not that it was a beast, but shedding a couple of pounds is generally a good thing, right?
Tim