"C tubas suck"

[bloke]

The contrabass part of Stars and Stripes is definitely more complicated playing a CC than a Sousaphone.

Too many 3rd and 4th valve notes on CC for my liking.... 1st valve Eb's and Ab's just seem a lot easier to my monkey brain.

At our Fall Concert, we played it for an encore. I didn't know that all of the brass players were supposed to stand for the second trip through the trio.

There was a lot of looking down going on and fighting the urge to go to muscle memory!

I've never played in a band or orchestra whereby the tuba or tubas also stood up with the rest of the brass, to tell you the truth.

[arpthark]

The summer festival band I play in does the stand-up thing. Not so bad this past year playing the tiny wonky .600” bore German Eb.

[prodigal]

Too many 3rd and 4th valve notes on CC for my liking.... 1st valve Eb's and Ab's just seem a lot easier to my monkey brain.

At our Fall Concert, we played it for an encore. I didn't know that all of the brass players were supposed to stand for the second trip through the trio.

There was a lot of looking down going on and fighting the urge to go to muscle memory!

I've never played in a band or orchestra whereby the tuba or tubas also stood up with the rest of the brass, to tell you the truth.

I'm used to it on trombone, but I had to find an angle with my bifocals, it was okay.

[the elephant]

This is what happens when you almost drop your tuba because some wanker wants you to stand up. This usually goes fine, but this time I lost my grip on the Holton and then had to fight to get it into a position where I could both hold it up and play at the same time, which was not easy. considering how I was holding it once I managed to CATCH it. Then, after all that, my bell was buried in the wing curtains, so I was inaudible to the end. What a pisser. This was a runout to a very small town, so the "concert hall" was the auditorium of the old high school that was closed about 20 years ago. They did a nice job of fixing it up, I think.

[bloke]

That VERY sort of thing (standing up with the tuba, but usually for applause) is ONE OF (not the only, but an important one) reasons why I went to sitting SIDEWAYS on the BACK of an X-style collapsible keyboard bench and resting Fat Bastard on the FRONT of it...because (when I stand up) I can concentrate on not dropping the tuba INSTEAD of BOTH concentrating on [1] not dropping the tuba and [2] not tripping on the tripod base of a tuba playing stand.

whatever...Y'all probably are more graceful, but me: I have had enough accidents over the years so as to know that I should reduce the chances of 'em.

btw...I've got it completely repaired, and the seat platform is now stiffer than it was prior to that sh!tty masonite cracking:

(6" x 7" x 1/8" completely epoxied and screwed on steel plate, PLUS two screwed-and-epoxied wooden rails...WAY less trouble than stripping it completely down and replacing the Masonite with plywood)





@the elephant
cat surgery/recovery update:
With his diaphragm no longer herniated - and his guts all staying down there where they belong (instead of in his chest cavity), his appetite is way up, his ribs no longer show, he's no longer shaped like a greyhound (actually has a belly) and his activity level is way up (being that he's only 5-1/2 years old). I'm now pretty sure that this was a birth defect that just got worse and worse. As months have now passed since the surgery (and I was shedding tears, assuming he wouldn't make it - though I should have trusted these amazing doctors), he's more "vital" than he was back prior to when the problem got so bad that we finally became aware (ie. an emergency) that there was a problem. If I'm lucky, he'll outlive me (because I need him ).

[the elephant]

seat stuff…

I own a welder and can powder coat stuff. I need to build an elephantine seat like that with an end set up for holding a tuba. I can probably do that.

cat stuff…

We just saved a dying, little boy cat, probably a year old at most, but runty enough that he looked like a big kitten. He'd been in a fight and had a huge section of his foreleg gashed open. It had developed a nasty abscess, and he could barely hobble around.

He has been indoors for about three weeks now and is healthy, active, and has grown a lot. He is also hilarious.

I am glas to hear about Covid doing better. Good boy!

[the elephant]

duplicate post…

[Bread]

My experience with BBb vs CC is much less enlightened than all y'alls.

I own a CC and am in a military fleet band, I used my CC for brass quintet, a government BBb for concert band and sousaphone for all the marching stuff initially. The conductor at the time had a strong preference that all the tubas play on the same instrument (at the time the section favored BBb because that's what the most people were used to). The horn I was on was pretty beat up and rough and I had a little bit of a grudge that I couldn't use my own. After moving to a different band I swapped to my CC for concert stuff. I am pretty ambidextrous between the two but just sort of decided that I am lazy and didn't like spending the time making sure I wouldn't make flubs on the memorized stuff with BBb and CC. After getting over myself and the clear bias I have for the horn I own (which I still really like) I'll admit I think the BBb carries better in the bigger group, and plays better with the bones (I don't know if that is real or in my head to be honest).

I will take this massive thread and pretend all of reasons you guys gave are the primary reason I am on BBb and not the initial convivence of consolidating what I play.

[catgrowlB]

Just like mouthpieces, tubas are a personal choice thing. What works best for you may not work well for others, and vice versa. There are models of tubas that I like a lot that some don't like, and there are popular models of tubas that just don't do it for me.

My earlier comments to bloke's main title were mostly said in jest towards F tubas. To make a blanket statement towards a type/pitch of tuba is foolish, imo.
But everyone has their opinions.

If I were well-to-do, I'd probably have a bunch of tubas in every pitch, and most styles and sizes

[bloke]

Whether or not a joke, it is actually true that most F tubas suck, as well as it being true that Americans don't do much more with them than use them to play solo recitals in nearly vacant university auditoriums (unless they're playing a solo with a university's concert band as a novelty, or something like that... and we shouldn't fool ourselves: Tuba solos are still considered to be novelties, just as are string bass solos, and even bassoon solos.)
.

It is true that the best B-flat tubas (and I'm talking about those that are large enough to use in medium size to large ensembles) just sound better than the best instruments built in C, and it is true that there are stinkers building each length. It's also true that the longer the instrument, the more accurate the player needs to be and the more prowess is required to play them. There's a reason why someone came up with the idea of a double horn for French horn players.

It's also true that C tubas built in the same size as whatever-size B-flats are a whole lot like the century ago built so-called monster E-flats in that they're troublesome (which is the trade off for being easier to play things with fewer technical errors and with slightly more speed), and only a few more of them in the last decade or so have been introduced with less wonky intonation characteristics.

Of course everything is a preference; that's true about everything.

I'm sure I would prefer the less work required to play an equivalent size C instrument with a bit less technical accuracy required on my part, yet sounding like an equivalent B flat, but that's not how nature works.

Having nearly a six decades perspective of screwing around with all sorts of equipment ranging from Astro nylon cup mouthpieces leaking air between the cup and the shank while playing old King tubas with super leaky (repair-shop-ruined) valves all the way to playing custom handmade instruments with astonishingly close tolerances with really nice mouthpieces - and from age 11 to nearly age 70, and working on dozens upon dozens of models of tubas over the years (and playing them after they've been repaired and noticing things about them... as well as having attended quite a few tuba shindigs and played on even more models at those events) I might have a few insights...a whole bunch more than when I was 19 years old or so and - when I picked up any tuba that didn't play like my 186 - I was such an inflexible player at that time that I judged anything else to be "weird".

Really wonky instrument intonation characteristics are a non-starter for me. I've owned several wonky tubas like that, and the struggle to either compensate for their characteristics with my mouth or my hand jumping around between multiple slides was just too much of a distraction away from trying to make music - particularly since there are instruments which are far easier to deal with along those lines, but - having thought about making the move to (or back to) B-flat over the recent decade (before I finally did it two or three years ago - and with a particular model that I now have having constantly having been on my mind), even though manipulating a B-flat instrument requires more player accuracy and more effort (thankfully, with the intonation characteristics not being wonky with the one I've chosen) I've judged it to be worth the effort, even though my own body is obviously aging... and the more I listen to videos of really fine European orchestras' low brass sections play excerpts passages, the more I understand why they really don't want people bringing factory cut-to-C yorkophones into them (referring everyone to the reel I linked several posts back in this thread). The B-flat tuba sound (sure, with world class players) just melts more into the trombone sound, rather than being a trombones "and there's a tuba over there" type of sound.

As far as this forum being a substitute for college (noticed in someone's signature), it just seems to me that most everyone should be working on developing a viable and in-demand set (or sets) of skills in the "trades" beginning around age 14 or 15 or so, and continue to develop skill and expertise in the trades through the rest of their formative years. Pursuing interests and skills that aren't in demand in the economy (such as the arts, and other pursuits whereby one learns "about" things, rather than developing skills actually DOING things) really should be pursued in individuals' leisure time and at their own expense... and people do have epic leisure time - particularly first world people.

[humBell]

I did not know that.

I guess i've been playing them wrong.

I've always blown, not sucked...

[prodigal]

"As far as this forum being a substitute for college (noticed in someone's signature), it just seems to me that most everyone should be working on developing a viable and in-demand set (or sets) of skills in the "trades" beginning around age 14 or 15 or so, and continue to develop skill and expertise in the trades through the rest of their formative years. Pursuing interests and skills that aren't in demand in the economy (such as the arts, and other pursuits whereby one learns "about" things, rather than developing skills actually DOING things) really should be pursued in individuals' leisure time and at their own expense... and people do have epic leisure time - particularly first world people."

At the school where I work, I ask my students about their career aspirations frequently. I'm mostly received with blank stares from them. We don't do a good job of preparing them for the real work world, as our goals seem to be only test scores, a great concert, a trophy, or good scores on our musical assessments. Just hammer the same stuff until they don't have to think to be successful. Just get by, get into an overpriced college with no career plan, and life will be good. Or just graduate and start working whatever job you can find, and you will be fine.

My orchestras have about 10 rehearsals before their winter concert. My young students are rather frustrated in that they have a lot of pieces (from their standpoint) and I haven't decided which ones we're doing yet. We will be sightreading a couple new ones (that will be on the program) in 20 minutes. Most kids are only used to having to learn six or seven pieces PER YEAR. They just rote these until they can play them, but they can't read and won't survive well on real repertory. The enterprising youth end up getting moved around on instruments, unless they are great soloists (violinists), so there is that learning curve like going from BBb to CC, except it is different physiology between violin and viola, and especially between violin and cello or bass. But when your incoming class has 1 viola, 3 celli, and 16 violins, you move whoever you can to TRY to get some kind of balance.

Band is the same way. Lots of saxes, clarinets, flutes, drums and trumpets. Very few low brass (I am being coerced to play along with the HS band) and NO double reeds for over a decade. Times are tough.

My daughters play cello and viola, my older son plays trombone and the baby is learning baritone early, but will probably end up on the tuba with Daddy. The oldest wants to be a large animal vet, the second is undecided, three wants to be a mechanic, and baby wants to be an electrician.

I'm fine if they don't go to college.

[bloke]

I worked with one freeway philharmonic that occasionally had four rehearsals for so-called masterworks concerts, but usually three and two for pops.

Another one never does pops and only does two rehearsals.
Recently they tackled the Ravel piano concerto, le Tombeau de Couperin, and Pictures at an Exhibition - all in two rehearsals.
They're all professional players and teachers, but they aren't the Pittsburgh Symphony - and that was just a little bit much for two rehearsals (and Pittsburgh typically does five rehearsals, I'm thinking). Everything was okay, but it would have been darn nice with four...

... but my point is that this is the "real world".
I couldn't imagine any of the individual players having thrown that concert together and only two rehearsals without having studied those pieces ahead of time (and musicians are not paid for studying pieces ahead of time).

[prodigal]

The PSO is far-underrated IMHO. (And that isn't just bias from a born Yinzer.)

[bloke]

The PSO is far-underrated IMHO. (And that isn't just bias from a born Yinzer.)

The last time I heard them, I was up in the balcony.
The violins were config'ed 1st stage right and 2nds stage left...
The sounded like a bunch of way-better-than-any-trumpet-players TRUMPETS.

imo, they should do something about the placement of the tuba and trombones.
They're fabulous/powerful players, but - at least from where I sat - they weren't particularly audible.

[je]

Is an Eb tenor horn the Eb version of a Bb baritone? Like Eb and Bb tuba.

Why is there no Cc euphonium?

I would guess that euphonium in Cc would be a useless redundancy and Eb tenor horn just overlaps French horn, tenor trombone, etc also being redundant...

At a basic level, yes, the Bb/Eb tuba and baritone/tenor pairings are comparable, but the tubas feel to me like variations on the same instrument, whereas the baritone and tenor saxhorns require substantially different embouchure and technique. Cup shape/depth tends to vary between the tubas, but there's a large difference between baritone/tenor mouthpieces in every dimension. As for redundancies, tone color is quite different between French horn and tenor horn; most ensembles favor the French horn (and they have a comparatively huge range), but tenor horns blend very well in British-style brass bands (and they're much easier to play as designed, rather than evolved instruments). And trombone is distinct from both.

As for C euphonium, isn't that essentially what the French C tuba is? I've never played a French C tuba, so I have no idea how quirky they may be to play... But I suspect you're right about redundancy here, mainly because both are in the Goldilocks zone of brass instrument range. And maybe that's why we don't (commonly) have C trombones either.

[prodigal]

The PSO is far-underrated IMHO. (And that isn't just bias from a born Yinzer.)

The last time I heard them, I was up in the balcony.
The violins were config'ed 1st stage right and 2nds stage left...
The sounded like a bunch of way-better-than-any-trumpet-players TRUMPETS.

imo, they should do something about the placement of the tuba and trombones.
They're fabulous/powerful players, but - at least from where I sat - they weren't particularly audible.

I might do this with my Chamber Orchestra. Back in the day when my viola section were absolute beasts, I put them stage left against the firsts, but now they are seriously outnumbered, so I think that I will put the seconds over there, violas, next to them, and the heavies next to the firsts.

[bloke]

I might be mistaken, but I believe this might be a GR-55.

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?stor ... 1518853483

A while back, on Facebook he was practicing some Prokofiev excerpts at home, and suggested that even people who are primarily professional C tuba players ought to own a really good B-flat to practice on - for concept of sound/resonance.

[MiBrassFS]

.

[bloke]

Are there differences other than the type of brass?
(I played a 51 in my driveway when some Buffet guys showed up here out of nowhere years ago trying to get me to become a dealer. LOL... They were telling me it was a great option for schools. At that time, the dealer price was $7,500 bucks, didn't include a case, and didn't include shipping... I started laughing inside my head thinking about how many schools around here would be willing to spend even 500 bucks above my probably $8,500 cost on those things with a case and shipping. It played well but I couldn't imagine a market for them - and even in the American working tuba players B flat world - which was very limited at that time but which has grown just a little bit since - that's a pretty hefty chunk of change for a four-valve that's not 6/4. I can sell 186's around here that I've slicked out, but I don't think I've ever sold any instrument to any school around here for $10,000 bucks... Though - now that money is worth only about half and only 4 years time, that may have to change as well.)