The MW 2141 Eb

[Sousaswag]

Okay... Those of you who frequent the off site deals forum, I bought that horn. Just now getting around to posting about it, as it's been a VERY long day. To be clear, I haven't played on it much. That said, I trust it enough to bring it to a rehearsal on Tuesday, cold turkey, just based on my long tones with a tuner today. That's the point of this post.

The long version:

Some of you may also remember that I've owned one of these before. Why in the heck would I buy another one after such a poor experience with it? Well, at some point in this model's life, it was "improved" or "redesigned" or whatever. I don't know how best to describe it, and I also don't know what exactly Meinl Weston changed about it to make it such a better instrument.

In my (extensive) "research" if you will, I've come up with a few telltale characteristics of the better 2141's that you can visually see if you look hard enough.

Older versions - This was my previous 2141. Notice how the leadpipe comes straight out of the valve section, at an almost perfect curve along the bell. It also has a lyre holder attached to it (important!) These ones also had strap rings on the back, and the FIXED (non-adjustable) thumb ring. These ones are no good (Probably). You will have a hard time playing these in tune. This one had a Euro shank receiver. I don't know about other ones, but this one did. [

Newer versions - This is my new 2141. This one is a MUCH better (read: GREAT) musical instrument. The things I notice - There's a different leadpipe bend. This one has a little bend right before it enters the first valve. I think the PT-22's had this same pipe. The bend is different, AND, there's no lyre holder. It also has (well, used to have) the adjustable thumb ring, and NO strap rings present on the back. American shank receiver as well. [

I don't know if this is voodoo or not, but it's what I've been able to come up with for those of you who may be looking for this specific instrument. They are out there. Just don't get burned buying a "pre-improvement" one. The other thing is the serial number being 3000 and above. Look on the receiver. If it's there, it's probably a better one.

THIS particular tuba: It's in what I'd consider good shape. What it needed today - I pulled all the slides, cleaned them up, and greased them. They all move remarkably well, 2nd and 3rd are even better than my own 2165. The valves needed a bunch of work. Ran them under some warm water, had to get the second valve unstuck, cleaned them up, and oiled/wiped away, repeating that process until things were moving well. It wasn't *super* dirty on the inside. It's sat for YEARS and everything was just frozen. It has some dents and dings, the worst of which limited to the bottom bow and bell (mouthpiece drops, it looks like), and one juicy dent on the 4th valve elbow. All easy enough to get out. The 5th linkage is also kind of noisy, probably just needs a little work. I put Yamaha springs in it too. Big difference.

Playing characteristics: Well, it's remarkable. Easy to play, responds REALLY well below the staff, and the big thing: I CAN PLAY IT EASILY IN TUNE. I don't have much to say on such a short time with it, but I'll have more tomorrow. So far, it's really great.

What are my plans for it? Well, I'll be hanging onto it for what I hope is a long time. I do have some ideas to improve on the typical MW 21XX design choices, namely re-doing the 5th valve lever and relocating the thumb ring. Pretty much exactly what I did to my 2165. A cleaning and dent work will be good for it, and anytime I come across these big valve horns the possibility of Martin's valves enters my brain. If nothing else, just to lighten them up.

What will I use it for? Well, it's about holiday time, and I have gigs lining up. I plan to use it for pretty much all of 'em, with the exception of my normal concert band. That one requires the oomph of the 2165. Brass band will be a place for this to shine as well, and I'm excited to play a real Eb with them.

What about my F tuba? Staying. I've put too much time, money, thought, and effort into that instrument. I don't care if these fill the same role. I like them both. It's also a great tuba that I will use for other things.

The mouthpiece that I like with it - RT-84S. I'm sure Joe's imperial will be a winner as well.

Because it adds redundancy to my stable, I need to make room for it. I'll be listing my B&M CC tomorrow after I take some good photos of it. With two big bass tubas now, I have absolutely zero need for a 4/4 CC. Stay tuned if you're interested.

That's all for tonight. I'm beat.

[arpthark]

Congrats! I guess I won’t be bugging you to sell me the valve section…

It looks like the branch directly after the main tuning slide is also tapered differently on the in-tune version of the model.

Glad you’ll get some use out of it!

[Sousaswag]

thanks for the guide to detecting the new vs old versions. I've played two of the old versions, and they were dogs.

[Grumpikins]

Thank you so very much for this post. I have always wondered about this model. My 2145 is fantastic and having a sister horn would be neat. Great info. I'm excited for you. The work you did on the 2165 was interesting as well. So it will be fun to see what you do with this one.

[Grumpikins]

Oh, just curious, what's the bore size on the valve section of that horn? Is it different from the earlier version?

[Sousaswag]

The bore is the same on all 21XX tubas. .748”/.787”/.805” for the 5th, I think. Regardless of big block or small block pistons.

I’m not sure if these ever made it to the new one-piece bracing style seen on the newer MW tubas. I would say that and the newer engraving could be another identifier, but I just don’t think that many of these were made, and the early ones left such a bad taste that they were a hard sell when they “fixed” them.

[Grumpikins]

I'm not well versed on Eb tubas, but that seems like a very large bore size for smaller/shorter tubas.

[Sousaswag]

They use that same piston set on everything. They put it on all sorts of tubas, and all keys, starting with the early 2145, 55, and 65, 45SLP F, then later 2141, 2182, 2250, 3450, 5450, 6450, etc.

I presume it’s Buffett’s way of saving costs and pumping out new model after new model. I believe the B&S tubas share the same basic block with a different slide layout.

[arpthark]

I saw some sources online say the 2141 has .748” through the first four and .768” through the fifth. (19-19.5mm).

[Sousaswag]

It very well could be. I’ll check with my calipers after the Bears game is over.

I got what you posted.

[Sousaswag]

A few more shots for you junkies:

[
MW 2141/Willson 3200RZ-5 - It amazes me that the Willson F is bigger than this Eb. But actually, they're taller than some 4/4 CC's. They're just really big. If we are serious about bass tuba sizes - 5/4 vs 6/4 at it's best.

[
Mw 2141/MW "6465" - What amazes me here is that these tubas use (basically) the same valve section.

This tuba is really, really, really good. I've played it for 2 hours and just can't put it down. Apparently I'm a better Eb reader than I thought I was, too. Anyway, I can set the slides and pretty much forget about them. The Imperial is a great match for it. Everything just feels good.

Eb tubas should be more "in." I know the 5v front action non-comps are rare as hen's teeth, but man, there's just something about them that I really like. I know 3+1's are more common and many people like them; But I think a lot of us would be just fine with something like this as our primary instrument. (So long as it's in tune!!!)

[Bob Kolada]

I remember reading about the 3000 serial number on the old forum.

I tried one maybe 15 years ago at WWBW, it was fairly dark but workable and otherwise a wonderful player. The valve ergos were completely unusable unfortunately. I'm 6'9" with about a 37" sleeve and I couldn't use the fourth valve without severely contorting my wrist, thumb ring or no thumb ring.

There's a young guy with a youtube account called augustuba who plays one of these, he has a really slick main slide kicker right next to the first valve slide.
https://m.youtube.com/@augustuba

[Sousaswag]

I don’t have an issue ergonomically with this horn, except for the 5th valve lever and the lack of a thumb ring (anyone got the old style adjustable ring sitting around??)

It’s on my list of things to fix.

re: August - That guy is crazy good, but I think he actually plays on a one of one Hirsbrunner Eb. Way cool in it’s own right.

[Mary Ann]

I'm not well versed on Eb tubas, but that seems like a very large bore size for smaller/shorter tubas.

The NStar has .772 - .835.

[arpthark]

I'm not well versed on Eb tubas, but that seems like a very large bore size for smaller/shorter tubas.

The NStar has .772 - .835.

.772”, same as the 186. Interesting.

Their 183 Eb is smaller, at around 18mm / .709”.

[Sousaswag]

I think the bore size matters less than the taper of the leadpipe and main body. Most rotor tubas have a larger bore anyway.

When Meinl Weston/B&S/everyone else pasted this valve block to all of their tubas, I don’t think the valve block messed with intonation… Much, at least.

Whatever they did to the 2141 has to be with the leadpipe or body, because the valve block is exactly the same. It’s just so hard to tell by internet photos without having both fixed and original 2141’s in the same room.

When did the SLP and corresponding leadpipe come out? I’d bet that was in line with when they fixed the 2141. Or, if it was out beforehand, maybe someone had the idea to put that pipe on this model and see what happens.

I’m now almost certain that the Pt-22 and late model 2141’s share everything except the slide layout. I’ve never heard anyone complain about a Pt-22 in the way we do about early 2141’s… I suppose there are so few Pt-22’s in existence that not many have played them anyway, but regardless, it was probably out around the end of the 2141’s life cycle and they shelved it because they were basically the same.

[hbcrandy]

25 years ago, I purchased the earlier version of the Meinl Weston 5 valved Eb tuba and, despite troublesome intonation, I plated my 50th birthday recital on it to very good reviews. The tuba had a superb sound and even response in all registers. The open Bb on the 2nd line of the staff was very flat and had to be played 1 & 3 to bring it up. The G in the top space of the staff was also flat and had to be played 1 & 2. I sold the tuba not long after the recital. When the open partials of the instrument are out of tune, this indicates that the instrument's taper is flawed. The taper of the remake of the MW Eb must have been corrected.

[Mary Ann]

I'm not well versed on Eb tubas, but that seems like a very large bore size for smaller/shorter tubas.

The NStar has .772 - .835.

.772”, same as the 186. Interesting.

Their 183 Eb is smaller, at around 18mm / .709”.

And yet the 183 I have will take more air w/o barking than the NStar, and is more open in the low register. It does not have as good intonation though. I repeatedly find out that it likes my 7B best of all the cups I have. It is my go-to for outdoor gigs.

[je]

Eb tubas should be more "in." I know the 5v front action non-comps are rare as hen's teeth, but man, there's just something about them that I really like. I know 3+1's are more common and many people like them; But I think a lot of us would be just fine with something like this as our primary instrument. (So long as it's in tune!!!)

Your new tuba has me intrigued. I really like my 3+1 Yamaha Eb, but my 5v Willson Eb is even more beautiful-sounding to my ear. I don't have enough breadth of experience with various tuba designs to understand why the Willson is so good. @Bob Kolada mentioned August Schieldrop's Hirsbrunner, which sounds similar, though almost certainly with worse intonation given the amount of slide manipulation he does to play in tune (but he does sound really good). Anyway, nearly every time I pick up my Willson Eb and play it, I stop for a moment and marvel at the combination of beautiful tone, clean articulation, and excellent intonation. It sounds like your 2141 is similarly inspiring.

[Sousaswag]

The Willson Eb’s are the best tubas they make - period. Their F’s are good, but not that good, and are certainly not as in tune. The smaller of the two 3400 Eb’s is REALLY good, but the big one is no slouch either. The smaller one is just “it.” I’m glad to see them finally coming available new. More people should give them a look not just as a bass tuba, but an all around tuba.

I think the sound thing - Eb vs F - is also very similar to the BBb vs CC debate. The BBb and Eb tubas almost certainly offer something “extra” in the sound that no CC or F tuba can quite get.

This 2141 - As I continue to play it, I continue to be more enamored by it and what it can offer. I would like to take it in for the cleaning/dent work and such, but I just don’t really want to send it away right now even for any length of time. Maybe over the holidays. I’m still waiting for that Holton anyway.